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Anyone have experience with PayPal?
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:22 pm
by Josh1billion
Long story short:
So I sold some computer hardware on eBay, and the buyer falsely claimed that it was DOA. Ridiculous since I tested it before I even shippped it, so my guess is that he mishandled it during installation. Or else UPS did that when packing, but I had to pay them extra to make sure it was packed properly, so doubt it. So I refused to give a refund, knowing I was not at fault.
Sometime later, the buyer proceeded to escalate it to a PayPal claim, but by then I had already withdrawn the money. It took about a month before I heard back from PayPal, and they didn't even request extra information throughout that month, but finally I received an e-mail today saying that PayPal's [expert panel of judges / unpaid intern named Roy] actually sided with him and that they want me to pay the guy $83. They said the money will be automatically taken from my account, though my balance is $0, so I don't see that happening.
What will happen next, will they try to send me a bill in the mail when they discover my balance is empty? Either way, it's ridiculous. I'm not paying for something that I know is not my fault.
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:34 pm
by SBukoski
I'm not sure what will happen, but one way or the other you'll be out of luck. Do you have a credit card or bank account linked to your account? They may take it directly from there.
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:39 pm
by John Cartwright
Paypal is evil, avoid them if you can. Without getting into detail, paypal permanently closed an account of mine with about 500 bucks in it with little explanation that my account was suspected of fraud even though at the time I had only ever made 1 deposit from my bank account and bought a set of poker chips.
You say you have no money into your account, however you did have to input your credit card to become a verified buyer, did you not? In these kinds of disputes there is very little you can do in terms of dealing with paypal. 95% of the time they will side with the consumer, or so I'm told.
As for what you can do.. very little. Doesn't hurt to have a lawyer in the family, or perhaps a small claims court.
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:01 pm
by Josh1billion
Ugh, that's not good. If they do proceed with the refund, I'm actually losing a lot of money, not just the video card I sold. The refund amount they want is $83, and after eBay and PayPal's fees, plus the extra amount I had to pay for shipping, I only ended up with about $55. So not only would I be losing the video card if I was forced to pay that amount, I'd also be losing nearly $30. This is ridiculous.
edit: Well, I've removed my credit cards and bank account from PayPal. Hope they don't send me a bill.
edit again: The PayPal FAQ says this, so I guess I'll do this once the claim is "closed":
What can I do if I believe a buyer's claim is fraudulent?
We want to know if you believe that a buyer's claim is fraudulent. PayPal takes action against buyers who file fraudulent claims and we welcome any information you might be able to provide. Once a case is closed, you will be able to report a fraudulent claim through the "Report Fraud" link on the Claim Details page.
The best way to avoid liability due to fraudulent claims is to follow the Seller Protection Policy guidelines. These "best practices" help ensure that PayPal has the information it needs to successfully prove a fraudulent claim.
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:57 pm
by s.dot
They will make your account balance negative and close your account if you do not pay them within a certain amount of time. I actually had mine closed years ago (similar scenario), but I just paid them and had it reopened.
Not sure what happens if you refuse to pay after that. Probably a collection agency.
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:51 pm
by Josh1billion
I see. Well I hope they just give up since it's only $83 they're trying to scrooge out of me anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'd pay it if I believed a refund was deserved, but in this case definitely not.
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:34 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Use a camera next time. Recording the serial number of the card/hardware, in an open PC, and wide panning to an in-progress game of Half-Life would be sufficient

. I'd say go tell Paypal to take a jump and not pay. You have not been sued, received a legal letter, or seen evidence the card is malfunctioning presumably. Tell them as much in a reply and explain your side of things - esp. that you personally tested it before delivery. Be aware kind folk like Paypal and your buyer expect you to roll over and give up after the first email they send - they react badly to resistence in my experience (expect months of waiting). That's the whole point of acting quickly on claims without proof by Paypal and their ilk.
I'd also check into your rights - you are required to refund money to someone who claims the video card is DOA, but who has not actually returned the item to you for inspection? Seriously? I'd make it a condition of payment you get the card back - in a worst case scenario (fraud) they'll have to deliberately break it with a screwdriver to get their refund

. I'd definitely be telling Paypal to go take a hike right about now.
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:10 pm
by Josh1billion
That's what I like to hear.
I'll definitely be resisting this fraudulent claim. The buyer has apparently shipped the card back to me, but that doesn't really prove anything as he could have still damaged the card (intentionally or not) before shipping it back. And then there's also the possibility that he could actually be keeping the card and sending me a non-functional, separate card of the same model-- that'd be a clever eBay scam, and he could easily do that. All he would have needed to do is have some non-functional video card one day, and then he searches around eBay and finds a functional one with the same model, which happens to be my listing, and so he buys it and then pulls this stunt as a scheme to trade his bad video card for my good one. You never know, it could happen.
But yeah, I'm definitely not going to just sit back and accept this fraud. PayPal is not stealing my money from me. And if they do, I'll be sure to spread the word so that they lose enough business whereas it'll end up costing them more than $83 in the long run.
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:28 pm
by Benjamin
Refuse the package. This person probably had a broken component and just swapped it out for a working one. Very low.
What's the deal with Paypal? Paypal is great for scamming people, as you may have just found out.
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:41 am
by Josh1billion
astions wrote:Refuse the package
More on that as it might be a good step to take-- what happens if I refuse to sign for the package? They deliver it back to the sender?
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:01 pm
by Josh1billion
What should I do now?
The package came today and my mom signed for it (didn't tell her yet not to), so now we can either keep the package and see what happens or have the UPS guy take it back tomorrow and tell him that she wasn't supposed to sign for it (it was addressed to me-- we know the UPS guy, and so he'll probably take it back). Or we can say that I moved, as I am going to move out (to college) in less than a month and a half.
So that's the first option-- to see, tomorrow, if I can un-accept the package since I wasn't the one who signed for it-- not sure if this would positively affect my case at all.
The second option would be to keep it and wait until PayPal makes its next move. The dispute center currently says, as of today's date, that they are "reviewing" the case. Before the package was delivered, it said that they were waiting for it to be delivered (and actively monitoring the tracking number to see when it was delivered).
What do you guys think I should do now? Option A or Option B?
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:52 pm
by Benjamin
Paypal will most likely deduct the funds from your account regardless of what you do at this point because the buyer probably paid with a credit card and can charge it back even if Paypal sides with you. Paypal won't risk that, so your screwed.
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:26 pm
by Josh1billion
astions wrote:Paypal will most likely deduct the funds from your account regardless of what you do at this point because the buyer probably paid with a credit card and can charge it back even if Paypal sides with you. Paypal won't risk that, so your screwed.
I see.. my balance is at $0.00 (I already withdrew the money which he paid me, luckily), so what will happen when they try to deduct it? I assume my balance will go negative, but do you have any idea what they normally do in that situation? Would they send me a bill, etc., and can I somehow refuse/dispute it if they do?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:35 am
by Benjamin
They will pull it out of your bank/checking account per their terms of service. Sorry to be so bleak. There's always the possibility that he did indeed send back the same device and that it is not broken.
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:11 am
by Josh1billion
Ugh, I hate PayPal.