How does one assess their "grade" for the job mark

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mattcooper
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How does one assess their "grade" for the job mark

Post by mattcooper »

Hi all, hope you're all enjoying some well-earned time off?

I am currently in the process of applying for a new job and need some help assessing what my grade really is, as I'm getting mixed messages from lots of people. Here's where I'm currently at in terms of experience and skillset:

I'm a 33 year-old self-taught programmer. I've been on the PHP learning curve for about 3.5 years now, and have been using it commercially in non-freelance work for about 2 of those. My skillset extends to clientside techs as well, including HTML, CSS, JS, XML etc and I can see a project through it's full life cycle with no problems, producing a content-managed and documented app or site on my own fairly swiftly. I've been working with web technologies for a total of about 4.5 years now.

I program in PHP5, although my understanding of true OO programing is quite limited, and use the MVC design pattern exclusively. I happily use cakePHP (although I have never set up a project from scratch with it) and, occasionally, Zend framework.

I have experience with setting up DNS and Apache stuff, particularly in order to provide sandboxed development environments on a network, and am fairly happy to be hacking around on the command line - my Unix is really improving. SVN doesn't appear to be presenting me with any problems either.

I have been working in an agency environment in London for about 18 months. Last year I produced a very large module for a CMS that provided YouTube-esque functionality for video podcasting and, although admittedly not a fully OO application, this has been my most challenging work (in terms of functionality & concept) to date. This year I have learned the Facebook API, Ajax and some funky databasing principles and I continue to steam on ahead with PHP5, picking up new tips and tricks all the time.

I think, as a result of my varied work over the past few years, I have built up quite a wealth of general experience with web techs, and pretty focussed experience with PHP.

So, guys, what grade am I?? And what should I really be turning my attention to next in order to get employers salivating to employ me for decent money?

I believe I would be regarded as a mid-weight, but could be wrong. Your comments will all be greatly appreciated and questions happily answered; thanks in advance!
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Inkyskin
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Post by Inkyskin »

You also need to take location into account. I live in South Yorkshire, and there is what I consider a severe lack of skilled PHP developers available. Wages in the Sheffield area are alot higher due to this, and there is a higher demand for real skilled developers, not just those who have read a Sams 24 hour book and rekon they know everything. Up here you would probably be able to get a very good position in seconds. Down in your neck of the woods though I can imagine it's a little harder to stand out from the crowd.

Do some research on what jobs are available, and what they are after. If they are looking for someone to setup and modify pre built CMS all the time, then your highly skilled compared to most applicants. If they need you to custom build many features, then your probably sound just right. They wont want someone whose skillset is higher than they need as they will have to pay more for you, while never needing your full potential.

Dont classify yourself as "middle of the road" etc. Look for what you know you can do - but yet would still be challenging, and what you would find exiting. If they see both those qualities, you would be off to a good start with that company in any interview. Basically to one company you would be highly skilled, to another you might be under skilled - it all depends on the job.

</end blah>
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onion2k
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Post by onion2k »

Some people are better (or worse) than their experience might indicate. The best way to prove your actual skill level is to provide examples. That's best achieved by making your own website and putting cool stuff on it, or contributing to some open source applications (and making a website to tell people about what you did). Whenever I've been involved in recruiting coders I've paid much more attention to the code on their website than what's on their CV.

Your site doesn't even need to be some whizzy flashy brilliant thing either. Just a static site with stuff on it is enough. Mine ( http://www.ooer.com/ ) is rubbish. I also have http://www.phpgd.com/ ... which really needs an update actually.

It's worth noting that this means any coder's CV that doesn't have a personal website on it has gone straight into the bin... :twisted:
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mattcooper
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Post by mattcooper »

Thanks guys. both posts contain excellent points. It's particularly interesting to read that CVs that don't have a link to a personal site are disregarded. I currently don't have one, although I do have a couple of fairly large apps in development for Facebook - usually this provides me with examples of recent coding.

I find it tough to converse with very seasoned programmers due to not having the knowledge of techie nomenclature - this is the result of being self taught and of not having had any mentoring, I guess.

Anyone know of PHP programmer networks in London (UK) that might prove useful to someone like myself? Trying to do one's learning of communication and nomenclature in the workplace inevitably raises eyebrows and gets people questioning how the hell you got the job... not good!
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Inkyskin
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Post by Inkyskin »

If you dont have a personal website or such, then make sure you can provide either with your CV, or when requested, a large amount of clean, well noted code. Thats what I had to do for my last job (As php is backend and they cannot see it anyhow).

I would suggest putting it online somewhere as it's kinda hard to read large chunks of code on paper!

As for networking, I'm not too sure myself. A quick google found this though: http://www.phplondon.org/wiki/Main_Page

By the way, If you do join a group like that, make sure you mention it in your CV, it shows that you keep up to date with the latest changes etc, and that your well versed enough to chat about it with other professionals.
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

I think what is really important is how you view yourself. I view myself as an advanced to expert level PHP developer. I would also consider myself an advanced to expert level web developer (meaning full gamut, not just HTML, but server side coding, server management, ALM, graphics, client side coding, database coding, optimization, etc). In fact, I would describe my skillset as almost identical to yours except I think of myself as a pretty seasoned OO programmer and have never really used a framework to develop apps before.

That said, I landed, about a year ago (after three years of learning, a few client sites and great interviewing technique) a full time PHP developer position in Silicon Valley paying me a very good wage. I have no degree, I have no formal training. I have a lot of time spent in this community helping others and a lot of time spent learning. But it is enough. Because I see myself as a very confident and apt programmer.

How do you see yourself?
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mattcooper
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Post by mattcooper »

Everah, that's a good question.. and thanks for your candor. I can answer this easily: I see myself as a good, instinctive programmer who has never had any mentoring and, in spite of possessing a broad range of web skills, therefore lacks the confidence to forge ahead and work toward attaining a senior position.

I'm really ambitious and keen to tackle projects that require lateral thinking - I view my coding and problem solving style as quite creative and perhaps unorthodox. I confess that I have never been able to communicate with degree-educated students and I cannot stand the anality and egocentricity of the majority of people I come across in the industry.

It is a constant frustration to me that most managing directors/people in charge of hiring seem to be hoodwinked by people whose nomenclature indicates and suggests that they could be right for the job when, in fact, the self-taught programmer and enthusiast like you and I are ofter the better bet in terms of all-round ability both in terms of programming and general communication.

I'd really like to see some more views on this subject posted in this thread, because it seems that it could answer the questions of quite a lot of ambitious newcomers to the industry.

Happy new year to all :)
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Kieran Huggins
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Post by Kieran Huggins »

Sometimes a little bit of confidence (even a small surplus) can be a good thing in a developer - gives them the edge to make faster decisions and try new things. It doesn't always pan out, but it usually beats thinking a problem to death.

Just realize that you're a good developer, and that all developers make mistakes and have plenty to learn. The thing that really makes you a valuable developer is experience, and that comes with getting out there and doing more, even if you fail at it. Wisdom counts for a lot.

Also, employers want to hire people they (and others) jive well with. You can learn skills, but jerks are always going to be jerks. Keep this in mind when applying for work... nice guys often finish first here.
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

I will ++ Kieran on the jiving with potential coworkers. When I interviewed for my current job what got me in the door was my interview. My confidence and personality sold me to the IT director, the Systems Admin and the Senior DBA. I was one of three interviews. Both of the other guys were professional, degreed IT folks. I was a self taught developer with a strong set of standards. In the end, I was what they wanted.
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