Caring about accessibility

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matthijs
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Caring about accessibility

Post by matthijs »

I know most of you are properly back-end developers, but I bet many of you do code some front-end as well. My questions:
are your aware of accessibility issues when you develop a website or webapplication? Do you care about making your site accessible? Do you try and put some effort in making sure your site is accessible? Or isn't it even on the priority list at all?

It's just that I sometimes encounter people who really don't care. Who say that for their site blind people are not important, or something like that. Personally I find an attitude like that quite disrespectful. It's like saying "you're in a wheelchair and can't access the building? Bad luck, go somewhere else".

For me, even if I have only one or two blind visitors a year on one of my sites, if they were able to find what they were looking for because I did something right when I build the site, I'm happy. And I'm glad I spend a bit of effort into building my site well. Of course I know there's always room for improvement and I still have a lot to learn, but at least I am willing to try.

What about you?
alex.barylski
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by alex.barylski »

I try and make sure every page validates -- and try and avoid tables -- but sometimes I just need them.

CSS is another issue -- I'm not sure my code would validate CSS wise or if it would pass WAI tests.

Care to look over my application and offer any pointers on how to improve the semantics or improve usability?

p.s-I'd love to be a "backend" guy unfortunately I work for myself so I wear just about every hat (designer, developer, architect, clientside, system administrator, marketing, sales, etc).
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John Cartwright
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by John Cartwright »

I'm ashamed that web standards are probably on the low end of my priorities. Deadlines are deadlines, and with browsers such as IE that do not follow the standards, making html render properly across all browsers becomes too time consuming.
matthijs
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by matthijs »

At least you don't think it's not important.

I am not sure if 100% validating HTML is needed for accessibility. I think other issues are more important. Like being able to resize text, having alt text filled in for important images, not relying on javascript, writing semantic HTML (headers, lists, good link text, etc).

The thing is, it's not that hard to make a website accessible. There's just a few little things to remember when you code the site. That first 90% is very easy to reach. Maybe that last 10% is a lot harder..
alex.barylski
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by alex.barylski »

The thing is, it's not that hard to make a website accessible. There's just a few little things to remember when you code the site. That first 90% is very easy to reach. Maybe that last 10% is a lot harder..
Not using JavaScript was proably the most difficult...I had to redesign my interface a few times to accomodate no JS -- this of course doesn't include things like WYSIWYG editors, etc...they do just degrade to simple textarea.
matthijs
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by matthijs »

Yes, javascript can be a difficult issue. But a lot will depend on how you approach your development. Do you start by building the most fancy ajaxified javascript interfaces or do you start with a basic layer of html/backend and add a fancy layer on top of that?

Just this afternoon I came across the work of these guys:
http://www.filamentgroup.com/lab/develo ... le_slider/
That's a very cool solution for something ( a slider) which you wouldn't normally expect to be accessible. But using progressive enhancement, it is possible.
alex.barylski
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by alex.barylski »

I use the slider at webfx in my application. :P

My application was designed from the ground up to run completely without JavaScript -- I then added the basic JS. I do very little right now with Javascript though. WYSIWYG...and that slider control, thats about it.
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Christopher
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Christopher »

In the United States many sites require 508 compliance for the visually and hearing impaired. I do some healthcare websites and it is important that they make an effort in this area. IANAL, but as far as I can tell the two most important thing you should do are:

1) Have alt text for every content image for screen readers to use
2) Make sure that text has sufficiently contrast with the background color to be readable

There is a lot more in the 508 requirements, but after reading a lot of it I am not sure how much more a web developer could really do without specific requirements. But the above to items so always be kept in mind.
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Josh1billion
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Josh1billion »

Blind people surf the web? :? No disrespect, but do they watch TV and play video games too?
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Christopher
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Christopher »

Are you asking whether they do or they should?

They certainly do. I have a number of sites that have the requirement that they work with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAWS_(screen_reader)
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Josh1billion
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Josh1billion »

I was asking if they do, because it seems odd since web-surfing is a very visual thing.

Very interesting though, that link you sent.. I am quite impressed with what people have done to help blind people. :) This is very good humanitarianism. :)
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John Cartwright
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by John Cartwright »

Josh1billion wrote:Blind people surf the web? :? No disrespect, but do they watch TV and play video games too?
It's not a question about whether blind people surf the internet or not, it's about equal rights. This same concept applies universally, i.e. wheelchair ramps, hearing aids, crouches. They are all tools for equal accessibility.
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Josh1billion
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Josh1billion »

Jcart wrote:
Josh1billion wrote:Blind people surf the web? :? No disrespect, but do they watch TV and play video games too?
It's not a question about whether blind people surf the internet or not, it's about equal rights. This same concept applies universally, i.e. wheelchair ramps, hearing aids, crouches. They are all tools for equal accessibility.
In response to the assumption that it is our duty to ensure "equal rights" for blind people: You can't assume "equal rights" in everything-- musicians don't need to go out of their way to make music accessible by the deaf, for example, and artists don't need to include detailed, poetic text descriptions for all their paintings for the purpose of being enjoyed by the blind. If you're blind, you can't expect someone to hold your hand and help you enjoy visual experiences, then cry out "discrimination" when you go to the local movie theatre and can't understand what's going on because the audio/dialogue doesn't illustrate the image on-screen well enough.

But I think you missed my last reply; my post wasn't really a rhetorical question as it seems you have interpreted it.
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Christopher
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by Christopher »

Josh1billion wrote:In response to the assumption that it is our duty to ensure "equal rights" for blind people: You can't assume "equal rights" in everything--
Yes and no. To the question of rights ... I don't think your example is very good because no one really has a specific "right" to hear a musician. Taking it to an extreme like that seems to reduce it to a zero-sum game. The actual right here is typically access to information that taxpayers either pay for or mandate. Certainly the right to that is reasonable in a modern society.

I think my response above was a little surprise at your question about whether blind people using the web. Where there is a will there's a way ... and last I checked people want to use the web. ;)

My point above is that it is actually very easy to make your websites very accessible to millions of more people. Adding alt tags to images, maintaining reasonable text contrast, creating generally semantic pages (i.e., using <h1-6> for titles, wrapping text in <p>, etc.) really require nothing more of the web developer than awareness.
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John Cartwright
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Re: Caring about accessibility

Post by John Cartwright »

Josh1billion wrote:
Jcart wrote:
Josh1billion wrote:Blind people surf the web? :? No disrespect, but do they watch TV and play video games too?
It's not a question about whether blind people surf the internet or not, it's about equal rights. This same concept applies universally, i.e. wheelchair ramps, hearing aids, crouches. They are all tools for equal accessibility.
In response to the assumption that it is our duty to ensure "equal rights" for blind people: You can't assume "equal rights" in everything-- musicians don't need to go out of their way to make music accessible by the deaf, for example, and artists don't need to include detailed, poetic text descriptions for all their paintings for the purpose of being enjoyed by the blind. If you're blind, you can't expect someone to hold your hand and help you enjoy visual experiences, then cry out "discrimination" when you go to the local movie theatre and can't understand what's going on because the audio/dialogue doesn't illustrate the image on-screen well enough.

But I think you missed my last reply; my post wasn't really a rhetorical question as it seems you have interpreted it.


I knew what you meant by it, just looking to engage a little discussion :)

I think whether or not the alternatives for a business to accommodate someone who is handicapped is viable plays a big role in the politics behind compliance laws (we also have to consider if it's technologically possible!). On top of that, we have to consider the context of the activity in terms of it's importance. So how important is access to information compared to subtitles in a cinema?


P.S. Sorry I didn't mean to drive this so out of context of web accessibility
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