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Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:43 am
by JacobT
Hey guys, I thought about posting this in the Job Hunt board but I don't think it fits into that category. I'm a full time LAMP dev in the LA area and I've been with my present company for a little over a year now. We recently downsized (in part because our overhead was too high and I did my job and automated some of the less critical procedures that people were manually doing) and now the company is quite small and feeling the economic "crunch" which is causing a lot of tension in the office. I relocated from the east coast to work with this company and I'm starting to get uneasy here. I currently make about $50k, the machine I dev on is pretty old and I'm just wondering if it's worth going elsewhere or if I have it pretty good and am just feeling the grass is greener syndrome.

A little background on me is that I'm a non-college LAMP dev for the last 10 years or so, although this is the first year I've sat in an office with a "boss" and had to take orders. I figured that by giving up contracting, life would be a bit easier (and I suck at the whole self-discipline thing) with a reliable paycheck. I saw a job offer for a competing company that sounds nicer, but I'm also worried about getting into a crappy place that only has a shiny exterior and then realizing too late that I had it pretty good where I was.

Most of the stuff I do is custom procedural code, re-inventing the wheel; although I'm familiar with MVC, OOP and most anything I have time to learn. I don't have a strong PHP5 experience because 99% of the client work I do is on servers that barely support the last PHP4 build. I have a working understanding of OOP and can work on pretty much anything put in front of me. I learn quickly and know AJAX, JS, CSS, XHTML, some SEO practices (mod_rewrite, accessibility, xhtml standards, etc).

Q: So does a non-specialist LAMP dev with 10 yrs contract / 1.5 yr employee experience making $50k in LA sound like a good situation or should I get some balls and try for a higher paying job?

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:14 pm
by Christopher
Sounds like you are looking more for encouragement to do what you really want to do rather than advice. ;) It is always a good idea to "get some balls" because it changes your outlook as much as your situation. The pay seems a little low for 10yrs experience but you don't mention benefits. I really don't know the job market that well though. Are you happy/content doing what you are doing? Is there something you really want to be doing? If so, what is a next step in that direction?

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:33 pm
by JacobT
As is the case with anyone who's not an egomaniac, I doubt my abilities.

I know I'm a "good" developer and I've been told by a large majority of my clients that I'm the easiest developer they've worked with. I know from personal experience that a lot of developers don't understand the UI portion of what they do and I take pride in that aspect so I feel my lack of knowledge about sysadmin stuff or oracle or any other RDBMS other than MySQL is the trade off. But without a BS in computer science, only 1 year of "official" experience, can I demand more than I'm making now? I went from making $20k to $45k to $50k in just a year or so. But I also know the salary range for this area is $45k to $140k according to PayScale. I've never had experience with scaling a site past one DB or setting up anything that gets millions or even thousands of uniques a day.

As for being content, not really. I hate setting up wordpress blogs, contact forms, FAQ pages and the like. I just want to be part of something where I feel I'm making a difference. I guess as a dev I have the wrong outlook because if someone calls me on a Saturday because their site is down and it's NOT their livelihood, my attitude is "it's just a website, call me on Monday".

I'd love to run my own site / company but I'm REALLY not interested in handling the business side of things. I was attracted to this company because we talked about doing things together; I had come with a plethora of ideas for projects and we formed a partnership for one of them and started looking for VC funding, but as soon as the main company started feeling a crunch, everything with my stuff was killed and now I'm just a wage slave sitting at a desk all day long getting the hairy eyeball if I don't look like I'm working my fingers off.

I don't know, I'm not really content with anything for very long I guess. My girl of 3+ years wants me to marry her and I'm not sure about that either :P If that's any judge of character...

It's hard to be your own boss for the majority of a decade and then end up someone's employee. The money is better, but I just am not happy. I just worry that I'm not going to be any happier anywhere else either.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:23 pm
by Christopher
Did you answer your question? ;)

Given your decisiveness quotient, perhaps you could contact a headhunter in the area and get a reality check on what you are really worth and what the market is like. I'm in Los Angeles too, so if you want a name I can probably find one for you.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:43 pm
by JacobT
I would love that. Thank you.

Frankly, I'm a kid (who's aging quickly) from a small hick town back east who thought $50k was more money than I would have ever made on my own back in cow-country. But now that I'm out here, in the big city, paying big city cost of living, I'm just curious if I'm supposed to be happy with my station in life or if I should keep climbing the ladder, to hell with who I leave behind. (i.e. the small company I work for currently that I moved out here for, who I'm friends with and who would be devastated if I left (not professional, personally)).

But yes, I would love someone's opinion on my own worth. It'll either be inspiring or humbling, either way, it'll be what I'm looking for.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:55 pm
by Josh1billion
I don't know much about the area, but it sounds like a low income to me. May be worth seeking something better.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:29 pm
by RobertGonzalez
Just a quick bit about growing a pair...

I am a self-taught PHP developer with no degree. I was working completely outside of the tech industry for nine years when I felt the pull to move into programming full time. I made a very clean resume, posted it on Monster.com and within two weeks I was working full time as a PHP dev.

I set my initial salary requirement as $90 to $110K a year (I was making about $55K in my old, non-tech job). The salary for the position I accepted was almost at my range. By the end of my first year I was already within that range pretty nicely.

Set a high standard for yourself. Know that you are worth it. Walk with the swagger of someone that knows they are worth at least $100K a year. Then speak like it.

The PHP developer market, for OOP developers with a decent understanding of MVC, frameworks, a few databases, scaling and PHP5, in California is about $85K to $125K depending on the area and the company. I can speak from personal experience that the peninsula half of Silicon Valley is totally within that range. I have seen offers from SoCal that are within that range as well.

If you are feeling the pull I say go with it. Test the waters. What is the worst that could happen? Nothing. What have you got to lose?

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:17 am
by lafever
Everah,

Those words are very inspiring. I have been re-teaching myself PHP to get into it full time for when I get out of the Army and I already know more than I used to in the matter of the 3 months I've been back into it. I was worried about being stuck as a freelancer for a while after (which will probably happen) but I will have no problem with speaking for what I feel I am worth.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:03 am
by JacobT
@Everah, what kind of things changed when you got the new job? Currently the majority of stuff I do is day-to-day client work for ecommerce, cms, FAQs, press systems, news articles, etc etc. Stuff that wouldn't be profitable for a $90-$100k developer to do. If I were to go to greener pastures (or at least more fertile), what kind of change could I expect? Of your list, the only thing I'm not comfortable with is scaling. PHP5 I've had some experience with and can learn more easily, but how would I learn / test scaling other than reading about it? I don't really have access to a server farm that I could setup multiple DBs on and learn about load balancing and I'm not a fan of theoretical learning.

What did/would you do?

@lafever, I agree, I know I come off sounding skeptical and insecure, but I'm very confident in my current abilities, I just don't have the experience of the market. But from the responses here, I'm willing to at least test the waters.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am
by RobertGonzalez
What I did was start developing apps for myself in PHP5 using OOP. If my clients didn't use PHP5 or their servers didn't support it, I would code for them in PHP4 OOP. No matter what though I began to place a very strong emphasis and OOP. That was the real kicker.

What I was doing before I went full time was writing apps for myself at work. I setup a local server there then got a hosted server and actually rolled a sweet little web app that the company I worked for still has yet to roll out for themselves (it has been almost 2 years).

I was also working on a lot of other projects (paid and free) that looked good on my resume at the time.

Another thing I did was familiarize myself with software development from a team perspective. I learned about source code control, testing, QA, dev->test->prod sequences of development. I learned about servers from the OS level and how to manage them (I did this by playing on my local machine). I did a lot of the things locally that I had read about/learned from the software development arena. That gave me a great leg to stand on when looking for work professionally.

All in all though I would say get yourself to a place where you feel confident in your abilities as a PHP programmer (not a developer so to speak, but someone that writes programs using the PHP language) then speak with that confidence to anyone that will listen. Stay humble (something that I did struggle with for a time) and always be willing to learn. But know deep down that you can be that stellar programmer that whatever company that sees you needs.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:37 am
by JacobT
@Everah, thank you. Your response(s) are very inspiring. I would consider myself a PHP Programmer, I know my way around a server enough to install and configure everything needed for a web environment, I've used CVS but not Subversion, I'm comfortable with OOP, just not proficient in PHP5's version, I've written applications for some decently traffic'd sites, I've written applications that have to deal with remote file management and work as an intranet for the company, I've setup a call center, project manager, employee manager, time tracker, etc etc etc. I would say I'm comfortable with my skill level, I just have to make the jump.

Here's the hard question (the one that keeps me up at night), do I leave the great small company I'm with that I'm friends with that would be devastated if I left (seriously, they'd probably cry) to go work for a larger company, or do I stick it out here because of loyalty? I haven't been able to answer that question yet, because after all, money isn't everything, so I appreciate any opinions you have about what you would do in this situation. :)

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 12:04 pm
by RobertGonzalez
JacobT wrote:Here's the hard question (the one that keeps me up at night), do I leave the great small company I'm with that I'm friends with that would be devastated if I left (seriously, they'd probably cry) to go work for a larger company, or do I stick it out here because of loyalty?
I hope I don't sound too cold or crass with this response but this is not a hard question at all. Loyalty does not pay the bills, does not provide lifestyle and does not put gas in your car.
JacobT wrote:I haven't been able to answer that question yet, because after all, money isn't everything, so I appreciate any opinions you have about what you would do in this situation. :)
True, money isn't everything, but if it doesn't mean anything to you why not work for free? I am not saying this to be a prick. I thought just like this for about three years before leaving my last company. I was good friends with hundreds of people there, from the president of the company to almost the entire IT, HR, Assembly, Purchasing and Production Control departments. I was as loyal as it got. I was practically best friends with my former boss.

In the end it boiled down to me taking care of my wife and kids and providing for them the way I am supposed to. Yes, I could have stayed working for $55K a year and been a happy, loyal employee and friend. Instead I chose what was best for my family and now I am making a crap load more than that and I am still a happy, loyal employee and friend... just with a different group of people.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:24 pm
by volomike
Based on what you've stated, you're paid too little for the area. If this is Orange County, it's one of the highest tax areas in the USA. Everything there is going to be about 2x and 3x as much as it is in my neck of the woods. And houses there cost about 2x more than they do in my area.

Now, granted it seems like you need to get some more PHP experience behind you, but you're still paid too little. I mean, when I think of big cities like LA, Manhattan (NYC), Chicago, etc., I'm thinking 6 figure salaries or almost that. Sure, we're in a down economy, and offshore competition is tough, but if you're good at what you do, approaching a six figure salary in any big city is what I would expect as the norm.

If you ever question how much they pay you, just take a look at the big division boss or president of your office there. Does he drive a car costing $80K or more? Does he have a mansion of a house with a large theatre room that seats 20 and has 4 large screens to watch football? Does he own real estate in the ocean islands and has a yacht? In my last job, that's what the division boss had, and for many years I was pulling $45K until I busted tail to work it up to $65K. (And previously had worked in Manhattan for $120K during the dot com boom -- had to slip that fact in there.) But things kind of plateaued at that point and I got sick of how much the upper brass were not contributing to managing our division well, and yet were sucking away all this cash from us and demanding too much unpaid overtime, so it was one of the major reasons why I walked out on my last job and became a freelancer.

Another option you have is to relocate to another part of the USA, perhaps. But I don't know your whole situation.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:29 pm
by pickle
The only advice I have is to not worry about money at all to begin with. Look at jobs purely for how much you'll enjoy them, then see if you can make ends meet at the one that seems the most fun. Your quality of life is much higher at a lower paying, fun job than at a higher paying pain-in-the-ass job.

Re: Confused in SoCal - Advice Needed

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:36 pm
by JacobT
@pickle, perhaps, but when you're sick to your stomach because you can't pay rent or have to starve to make your car payment (NOT a fancy car at all, barely transportation), it's hard to "not worry about money" and "enjoy life". Right now I enjoy it a fair amount, but there are a number of things that I want, and I'll admit I'm a material person, to make my life enjoyable. Some of those being power, food, water, etc.

If you don't pay your sewer bill, do they shut off your toilet?

But in general I'm not looking to be rich, I just want to get to a station in life where I can consider myself wealthy. I would like to have a good retirement and have enough to put my kids (someday) through college. Right now I can barely afford myself let alone my girlfriend and any family. I don't want to have to ever worry that I don't have enough money to buy gas. Don't get me wrong though, I want to swear, curse and damn the gas companies for how much it is, but I don't want to have to worry whether I have a spare $20 to put in the tank to get me to work and whether or not that impacts whether I'm eating half sandwiches or whole ones for the remainder of the week (which is where I am now).