Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
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SpiderMonkey
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Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
I've been trying to chuck together an AJAX front end for a university bioinformatics system, and IE is wearing me down. Why do we still have to put up with this awful browser that doesn't implement anything properly?
Microsoft releases these half-baked browsers, and developers and their employers bear the cost in terms of the time they have to waste on cross-browser compatibility. They could've spent money doing the job right, but instead the figured that because of their monopoly position, that web developers would simply have to put in extra time to compensate for any flaws that were still left in the browser when it was released.
So, we essentially subside them when they produce this piece of crap. They get to spend less money making a browser, costing us time and our employers/clients money, and doing no big favours for my stress levels. Argh!
Microsoft releases these half-baked browsers, and developers and their employers bear the cost in terms of the time they have to waste on cross-browser compatibility. They could've spent money doing the job right, but instead the figured that because of their monopoly position, that web developers would simply have to put in extra time to compensate for any flaws that were still left in the browser when it was released.
So, we essentially subside them when they produce this piece of crap. They get to spend less money making a browser, costing us time and our employers/clients money, and doing no big favours for my stress levels. Argh!
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
Pretty much. IE8 will not support XHTML (application/xhtml+xml), addEventListener, SVG, or any useful CSS3.
But on the bright side when IE8 is finished it won't have retarded font issues like Konqueror!
But on the bright side when IE8 is finished it won't have retarded font issues like Konqueror!
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SpiderMonkey
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
How can we as developers get more people to ditch it though? The main edge that Firefox has, from the casual users point of view, was tabs - and now IE has tabs its harder to argue for its rubbishness to them.
If I had more time on my current project, I might have made a nice AJAX front end, but when it detects IE it goes into a more basic interface with a link saying 'you want the pretty, get a decent browser'. Creating a project that is to be used in house also gives me more flexibility to be harsh about the level of support I give for IE, something I wouldn't be able to do in a commercial environment.
As it is, I'm adding ugly, unnecessary JS hacks to get IE to behave like every other browsers on the planet. Worst of all, when it comes across a piece of code that Firefox/Safari/Opera trot through seemingly, it reports it as an error and blames ME (and thus, so does the user).
If I had more time on my current project, I might have made a nice AJAX front end, but when it detects IE it goes into a more basic interface with a link saying 'you want the pretty, get a decent browser'. Creating a project that is to be used in house also gives me more flexibility to be harsh about the level of support I give for IE, something I wouldn't be able to do in a commercial environment.
As it is, I'm adding ugly, unnecessary JS hacks to get IE to behave like every other browsers on the planet. Worst of all, when it comes across a piece of code that Firefox/Safari/Opera trot through seemingly, it reports it as an error and blames ME (and thus, so does the user).
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
I don't find writing cross browser AJAX to be any sort of a problem. jQuery sorts out all the incompatibilities rather nicely.
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
You guys champion jQuery as if people weren't still using dialup. Don't get me wrong I love it but even compressed it's an extra 10 seconds on a 28K modem. But that's OT...
The problem with all browsers is that their default GUIs suck. They need to have icons with text labels, back, forward, reload, stop, home, bookmarks, downloads, history, new tab, and print. The address bar below with the bookmarks toolbar folder to the right.
It's all about presentation. If users don't see it they won't use it.
The vast majority of IE users will remain IE users until someone like me comes along and sets up ***AND*** configures Firefox. Simply installing Firefox alone doesn't seal the deal. I also install several extensions such as the ones listed on my site's links page...
http://www.jabcreations.com/home/home-links.php#hb
The reasons I install those extensions are listed per extension.
I haven't received a single complaint that I haven't been able to resolve with the setup I give people using Firefox on XP.
Too bad Linux gurus are still goofing around in the console otherwise I would have moved my clients to Linux. Having to mess around in the console just to install programs!? Turning hard drives in to Swiss cheese and not having an option to disable the page file just seals the coffin. Vista is just as bad too, my physical memory is not a #%^%#ing RAM-drive. Don't even get me started on OS X...a maximize button that doesn't maximize...who comes up with this stuff?!
The problem with all browsers is that their default GUIs suck. They need to have icons with text labels, back, forward, reload, stop, home, bookmarks, downloads, history, new tab, and print. The address bar below with the bookmarks toolbar folder to the right.
It's all about presentation. If users don't see it they won't use it.
The vast majority of IE users will remain IE users until someone like me comes along and sets up ***AND*** configures Firefox. Simply installing Firefox alone doesn't seal the deal. I also install several extensions such as the ones listed on my site's links page...
http://www.jabcreations.com/home/home-links.php#hb
The reasons I install those extensions are listed per extension.
I haven't received a single complaint that I haven't been able to resolve with the setup I give people using Firefox on XP.
Too bad Linux gurus are still goofing around in the console otherwise I would have moved my clients to Linux. Having to mess around in the console just to install programs!? Turning hard drives in to Swiss cheese and not having an option to disable the page file just seals the coffin. Vista is just as bad too, my physical memory is not a #%^%#ing RAM-drive. Don't even get me started on OS X...a maximize button that doesn't maximize...who comes up with this stuff?!
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SpiderMonkey
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
It looks nice, but doesn't seem to cover the problems I am having (I've mentioned them on the client side board)onion2k wrote:I don't find writing cross browser AJAX to be any sort of a problem. jQuery sorts out all the incompatibilities rather nicely.
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SpiderMonkey
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
I'll give your firefox shiny bits a look (assuming they work on Mac OS X)JAB Creations wrote:The problem with all browsers is that their default GUIs suck. They need to have icons with text labels, back, forward, reload, stop, home, bookmarks, downloads, history, new tab, and print. The address bar below with the bookmarks toolbar folder to the right.
It's all about presentation. If users don't see it they won't use it.
The vast majority of IE users will remain IE users until someone like me comes along and sets up ***AND*** configures Firefox. Simply installing Firefox alone doesn't seal the deal. I also install several extensions such as the ones listed on my site's links page...
http://www.jabcreations.com/home/home-links.php#hb
The reasons I install those extensions are listed per extension.
I haven't received a single complaint that I haven't been able to resolve with the setup I give people using Firefox on XP.
Hey, I like the way Mac OS X maximises stuff! Its intelligent! But I guess we can agree to disagree on that.Too bad Linux gurus are still goofing around in the console otherwise I would have moved my clients to Linux. Having to mess around in the console just to install programs!? Turning hard drives in to Swiss cheese and not having an option to disable the page file just seals the coffin. Vista is just as bad too, my physical memory is not a #%^%#ing RAM-drive. Don't even get me started on OS X...a maximize button that doesn't maximize...who comes up with this stuff?!
I have to object to the idea that Linux users ever need to go into the console. Ubuntu takes care of that to such an extent that you shouldn't have to go into the console for anything a non-techie user will ever want to do. Some set up is required in the first place of course, it is still Linux. However, the 'advantage' of windows allowing completely clueless users to function without support is part of what makes windows such a pain in the arse.
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
So you think all browser interfaces suck. And so does OS X? wow that's quite a statement...JAB Creations wrote:The problem with all browsers is that their default GUIs suck. They need to have icons with text labels, back, forward, reload, stop, home, bookmarks, downloads, history, new tab, and print. The address bar below with the bookmarks toolbar folder to the right.
...
.. Don't even get me started on OS X...a maximize button that doesn't maximize...who comes up with this stuff?!
I'd love to see you come up with a brilliant interface for the next perfect browser. Maybe some open source browser projects could use the help of an interface designer like you
As to the original question: just accept IE is bad, takes up a big chunk of your development time and try to get as many people to switch as possible.
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
yes, waste the space to actually display the page with million buttonsJAB Creations wrote:The problem with all browsers is that their default GUIs suck. They need to have icons with text labels, back, forward, reload, stop, home, bookmarks, downloads, history, new tab, and print. The address bar below with the bookmarks toolbar folder to the right.
is't 2008 you know, do you design for 640x420 screen size too?You guys champion jQuery as if people weren't still using dialup. Don't get me wrong I love it but even compressed it's an extra 10 seconds on a 28K modem. But that's OT...
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
I'm running XP on my main rig with Kubuntu 8/KDE 4 in VMware Server and OS X on my AMD/AGP rig. I'm actually pretty much cleaning up tons of rendering errors that the browsers just aren't getting fixed (inline elements when set to display as block aren't having their height property set correctly in any browser period in example).
By default GUIs suck I mean the default should always cater to the common lowest experience level. Any noob knows what a download is, but if they don't have a big friendly icon with a text label saying "download" which also translates in their mind as "this won't blow your computer up". Well there is the issue of im_so_not_a_virus.exe but that is more of an OS/monopoly issue. *cough* Bill Gates *cough* I can say that Konqueror 4 did make some progress in GUI customizability.
I just tried to install Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 on Kubuntu. I basically guess clicked on stuff and Firefox 3 worked from a tar (? I think?) download. Opera is sitting there dead in the water doing nothing with a couple files like install.sh. Now if I can't get RPM installers that kindly ask me where I want the program installed with other common installation options it's so not ready for someone like my mother to be on the phone following my directions on how to install it. Sure not being able to install stuff could be great in some ways (im_so_not_a_virus.exe) and it's bad in others (I run Linux only in VMware without the desire to learn console commands when GUI should exist for this stuff a long long long. Seriously the only things I have to use a console for in XP is to ping and tracert. They have a frigin GUI app on some flavor of Linux to ping but you have to use a console to install most software?
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of using Linux once they get their heads out of the console for a little bit. Sure it's great but Linux will forever remain a single digit market share OS until they learn that free isn't the only thing you need to be to gain substantial market share: easy and thus productive GUI environment.
That is why the vast bulk of user agents on my site (obviously other then coming from my IP address of course) continue to be from XP. Only noobs who don't know jack about computers who buy Dells and little kids who presume in absolute that newer must always be better will run Vista. So long as Vista's sexy yet completely horrible GUI and desire to treat physical memory as a #%^#%ing RAM-drive remain in tact the OS market is going to fragment as IE6/IE7/Firefox/Webkit (based) browser market has. We don't want IE6 but businesses are sticking with it. Microsoft wants to sell Vista and Windows 7 but people are going to stick with XP. Why? For those situations those applications and platforms work with minimal effort. Remember: it's not difficult to get a page to look "alright" in IE, it's difficult to follow standards and get it to look alright in all browsers including IE.
As far as OS X goes I dread having to deal with multiple window apps. The dock looks cool at first but it's very easy to loose windows. As far as I can tell there isn't a way to press a button and have a window take up the maximum amount of desktop space available like in Windows. Keep in mind most people who own a mac blew tons and tons of money to get theirs many of whom consider that amount of money mere pocket change. The screen resolutions I record from OS X users tend to be much higher (2500+) but they are also locked on many things. My Uncle for one can't upgrade Safari past 1.2. I consider myself lucky that I noticed my copy of OmniWeb was sporting Webkit build 420 (Safari 2.x) so I can at least get that covered. They w...(mac.com down and can't get the price of the 2GB upgrade on Mac Mini.)
Another topic almost altogether: developers don't comprehend design! WTF is my Go button in Firefox 3? Great...remove the go button for the bulk of the browser's session because "it takes up space". Absolutely brilliant! Why not drive without tires on the argument that extra weight burns more gas! ...and to top it off the plastered a stupid bookmark icon to fill up that "wasted" space. I'd say a safe estimate based on my clientele that 90% of people who surf at home don't bother to bookmark/favorite pages. Typically they use the same search term on Google. Don't believe me? Look up the references in your access log/statistics script. You didn't get 45 unique people searching for "free iPod", you got 12 people four of which make up the bulk of those results. I click go to make an intentional $_GET request in place of a $_POST when I don't feel like doing something noobish like making a double post. Sometimes the first $_REQUEST simply ended up in a black hole, time to reconfirm your commitment to loading the page before the Sun burns out and the browser decides to inform you there was no response...after a 300 second time out. Middle-clicking (from what I hear) the go button duplicates the current tab. How many times do you "go" a day? How many times do you bookmark things? I bookmark pages maybe about 1-3 times a week tops. I'm really not that easily amused nor am I going to bookmark something I commonly go to (W3C site shows up just fine for quick and dirty CSS references in example).
I know people, I know their behaviors, I know their habits. I know what they want before they knew it existed. I just need to learn the web development and the "right" way to do things versus the "it just works" way with PHP and MySQL. Many people argue against what I say because I initially embrace the inexperienced over the technically savvy...well why not? They know how to turn off text labels in Firefox's GUI! They know how to customize this stuff to be completely unusable to noobs who reboot their computer three times because they can't connect to the mail server (heh awesome video). Not everyone wants to learn and embrace technology...it just needs to work. That's why I love this forum because web design/clientside only goes so far until you get bored looking at a pretty page. People need to sign in and have their preferences and important information saved. They need to achieve goals, not tinker with something in hopes that it will work and that they can get a three hour job done five minutes before 5 so they can rush home because the system simply sucks. I know how the system should be, it's only a matter of figuring out how to make it myself. But then again I'm one guy and I don't have the time and resources to chew out a Firefox installer with preinstalled preferences and extensions. I know my destination in life, I'm just not sure who will join me along the road.
If developers were supplemented by designers mac.com wouldn't be down right now. Vista would only preload programs like Oblivion and WOW and not treat physical memory like a page file and hard drives like disposable floppies. I'd be using Linux if I could turn off the page file because I am competent to know if I'm not using it then it doesn't need to be sitting in a page file...I've got all the memory I'll be using for a while, stop trying to turn my hard drive in to Swiss cheese. To me how stuff should work is easy. Convincing others to take someone else's perspective, well I suppose miracles could happen...
By default GUIs suck I mean the default should always cater to the common lowest experience level. Any noob knows what a download is, but if they don't have a big friendly icon with a text label saying "download" which also translates in their mind as "this won't blow your computer up". Well there is the issue of im_so_not_a_virus.exe but that is more of an OS/monopoly issue. *cough* Bill Gates *cough* I can say that Konqueror 4 did make some progress in GUI customizability.
I just tried to install Firefox 3 and Opera 9.5 on Kubuntu. I basically guess clicked on stuff and Firefox 3 worked from a tar (? I think?) download. Opera is sitting there dead in the water doing nothing with a couple files like install.sh. Now if I can't get RPM installers that kindly ask me where I want the program installed with other common installation options it's so not ready for someone like my mother to be on the phone following my directions on how to install it. Sure not being able to install stuff could be great in some ways (im_so_not_a_virus.exe) and it's bad in others (I run Linux only in VMware without the desire to learn console commands when GUI should exist for this stuff a long long long. Seriously the only things I have to use a console for in XP is to ping and tracert. They have a frigin GUI app on some flavor of Linux to ping but you have to use a console to install most software?
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of using Linux once they get their heads out of the console for a little bit. Sure it's great but Linux will forever remain a single digit market share OS until they learn that free isn't the only thing you need to be to gain substantial market share: easy and thus productive GUI environment.
That is why the vast bulk of user agents on my site (obviously other then coming from my IP address of course) continue to be from XP. Only noobs who don't know jack about computers who buy Dells and little kids who presume in absolute that newer must always be better will run Vista. So long as Vista's sexy yet completely horrible GUI and desire to treat physical memory as a #%^#%ing RAM-drive remain in tact the OS market is going to fragment as IE6/IE7/Firefox/Webkit (based) browser market has. We don't want IE6 but businesses are sticking with it. Microsoft wants to sell Vista and Windows 7 but people are going to stick with XP. Why? For those situations those applications and platforms work with minimal effort. Remember: it's not difficult to get a page to look "alright" in IE, it's difficult to follow standards and get it to look alright in all browsers including IE.
As far as OS X goes I dread having to deal with multiple window apps. The dock looks cool at first but it's very easy to loose windows. As far as I can tell there isn't a way to press a button and have a window take up the maximum amount of desktop space available like in Windows. Keep in mind most people who own a mac blew tons and tons of money to get theirs many of whom consider that amount of money mere pocket change. The screen resolutions I record from OS X users tend to be much higher (2500+) but they are also locked on many things. My Uncle for one can't upgrade Safari past 1.2. I consider myself lucky that I noticed my copy of OmniWeb was sporting Webkit build 420 (Safari 2.x) so I can at least get that covered. They w...(mac.com down and can't get the price of the 2GB upgrade on Mac Mini.)
Another topic almost altogether: developers don't comprehend design! WTF is my Go button in Firefox 3? Great...remove the go button for the bulk of the browser's session because "it takes up space". Absolutely brilliant! Why not drive without tires on the argument that extra weight burns more gas! ...and to top it off the plastered a stupid bookmark icon to fill up that "wasted" space. I'd say a safe estimate based on my clientele that 90% of people who surf at home don't bother to bookmark/favorite pages. Typically they use the same search term on Google. Don't believe me? Look up the references in your access log/statistics script. You didn't get 45 unique people searching for "free iPod", you got 12 people four of which make up the bulk of those results. I click go to make an intentional $_GET request in place of a $_POST when I don't feel like doing something noobish like making a double post. Sometimes the first $_REQUEST simply ended up in a black hole, time to reconfirm your commitment to loading the page before the Sun burns out and the browser decides to inform you there was no response...after a 300 second time out. Middle-clicking (from what I hear) the go button duplicates the current tab. How many times do you "go" a day? How many times do you bookmark things? I bookmark pages maybe about 1-3 times a week tops. I'm really not that easily amused nor am I going to bookmark something I commonly go to (W3C site shows up just fine for quick and dirty CSS references in example).
I know people, I know their behaviors, I know their habits. I know what they want before they knew it existed. I just need to learn the web development and the "right" way to do things versus the "it just works" way with PHP and MySQL. Many people argue against what I say because I initially embrace the inexperienced over the technically savvy...well why not? They know how to turn off text labels in Firefox's GUI! They know how to customize this stuff to be completely unusable to noobs who reboot their computer three times because they can't connect to the mail server (heh awesome video). Not everyone wants to learn and embrace technology...it just needs to work. That's why I love this forum because web design/clientside only goes so far until you get bored looking at a pretty page. People need to sign in and have their preferences and important information saved. They need to achieve goals, not tinker with something in hopes that it will work and that they can get a three hour job done five minutes before 5 so they can rush home because the system simply sucks. I know how the system should be, it's only a matter of figuring out how to make it myself. But then again I'm one guy and I don't have the time and resources to chew out a Firefox installer with preinstalled preferences and extensions. I know my destination in life, I'm just not sure who will join me along the road.
If developers were supplemented by designers mac.com wouldn't be down right now. Vista would only preload programs like Oblivion and WOW and not treat physical memory like a page file and hard drives like disposable floppies. I'd be using Linux if I could turn off the page file because I am competent to know if I'm not using it then it doesn't need to be sitting in a page file...I've got all the memory I'll be using for a while, stop trying to turn my hard drive in to Swiss cheese. To me how stuff should work is easy. Convincing others to take someone else's perspective, well I suppose miracles could happen...
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
average user wont press go button to reload the page, they would press refresh
and opera is available as deb file too (and you simply double click to install, how hard is that), it is your problem if you downloaded the wrong one
and opera is available as deb file too (and you simply double click to install, how hard is that), it is your problem if you downloaded the wrong one
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
Must be a difference country then because here the average user types an address and then instead of pressing enter uses their mouse to click the go button.
I downloaded both installers for Opera and neither worked. Sure I like to learn new stuff but he who learned of life all ran out of time to actually apply it to his own.
I downloaded both installers for Opera and neither worked. Sure I like to learn new stuff but he who learned of life all ran out of time to actually apply it to his own.
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
when you type new address/change the current one the go button is displayed
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Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
Don't just take my word for it, read what other people have to say as well...
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405461
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405461
Re: Internet Exlorer is the tool of Satan
- multiple window apps: out of the 20+ apps I use regularly, maybe one or two are multi windowJAB Creations wrote:As far as OS X goes I dread having to deal with multiple window apps. The dock looks cool at first but it's very easy to loose windows. As far as I can tell there isn't a way to press a button and have a window take up the maximum amount of desktop space available like in Windows. Keep in mind most people who own a mac blew tons and tons of money to get theirs many of whom consider that amount of money mere pocket change
- loosing windows in the dock? how do you do that?
- maximize windows: that's the no 1 complaint of people being used to the windows way of doing things and switching to OS X. But after a short while of getting used to it, for most people it makes perfect sense. If I have a book on my (real) desk, I also don't want it to take up my complete desk. Just enough space is ok.
- "blowing tons and tons of money?" Where did you buy yours? A second-hand for $5000 on ebay? You should visit an apple store, were you can buy macbooks for around $1200 and mac mini's for 599. That's about the same as comparable pc's, a lot cheaper if you account for total cost of ownership.
We're taking this thread so off-topic ...
@spidermonkey: have you looked at one of the other javascript frameworks out there (YUI, prototype, DOMassistent, etc etc)? I bet almost all of them handle AJAX in some way and help you solve cross browser issues?