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"programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:59 am
by josh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-ling ... rogramming - "programming" people
http://changingminds.org/ - changing what others think, believe, and do ( negotiation & persuasion )
http://www.eruptingmind.com/how-to-use- ... ersuasion/ - personality types, theory that everyone has 4 personality types which combine to 16 general categories of people, which can be used to predict how people work mentally
Helps me out when dealing with certain troublesome clients, who seem to have their own "mind games" they try play with you, all to save from paying you that extra dollar. Thought I'd share. Many large corporations are using these new personality tests. If you wanted to you could read up on the meaning of the questions and tell them what they want to hear, hah. Or use it for yourself in negotiation
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:58 am
by onion2k
I have a huge pile of books about this stuff. It's fun.
Although I read them to improve my chances with women rather than clients.

Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:16 am
by josh
"the game"? lol
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:44 am
by onion2k
jshpro2 wrote:"the game"? lol
Yeah, I've read that. It's not a bad story but the advice in it is.. dubious. There are much better books.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:58 am
by Jenk
I'm against this, in all honesty. I t is my responsibility as a developer to change what I think and feel to suit the client/customer. They are paying me to provide software that suits their need, not have me dictate what their needs should be, and then demand money for it.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:20 pm
by dml
It doesn't have to be fraudulent, there are situations where you need to persuade a customer that what they want isn't in their interests, and it's nice to have options other than a frontal logical assault on their critical faculties. In theory, people should listen to such logical arguments, but in practice they have their mind set on something and they don't like being told what's good for them. If you filter out the creepy, cultish, pseudoscientific stuff, there's a lot of good material in NLP about how to have dialogues where instead of getting more and more frustrated that the customer isn't listening to reason, you get the customer to step out of their mindset for a little bit, or you turn things around so they start by telling you what their needs are, and that commits them to take on board ideas that achieve those needs.
If I'm honest about it, I'm not so moral that I'd say no to being able to persuade people to do things they didn't really want. The thing that really turns me off about a lot of these techniques is how crass and obvious they are, like
name repetition, personality mirroring, and never breaking off a handshake.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:47 pm
by alex.barylski
I'm with Jenk sorta. I believe it's my responsibility as a professional to properly inform and estimate projects so there are no hidden surprises. If they want an extra feature obviously that is going to cost money but if you need to negotiate after you both have agreed on a set number of features...as a developer I would feel like I miscalculated and should pay the consequences.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:47 pm
by josh
Well its a tool, like the saying "guns don't kill people people kill people"... You can use the skills to try to view things the same way as your client, to put yourself into their shoes.
Also the best way to avoid being manipulated or "pushed around" by clients is to be assertive. For example how many times have you had a project scope dumped on you and been pressured to give a "ballpark" estimate.
Good business men will get you overloaded with emotion / stress so that you act based on these internal forces more then use your logic. Being able to step back and analyze a situation you are in can save you from being "bullied" into taking on an under budget project because you were pressured into giving a quote before you had time to think it through.
Also its never unethical to ask for more money, most successful clients ( the ones I want ) got to where they are by cutting costs and maximizing profits. Most employees are driven by fear and greed. An employer / client knows this and will use this against you while acting all friendly to your face. You can get burnt badly by playing with fire.
I don't think its ever inappropriate to negotiate / persuade.
Also if youre interested in this stuff check out "the art of war", its real big with business men in asia ( well in the US too from my experience )
These skills apply to all aspects of life.
Jenk wrote:I'm against this, in all honesty. I t is my responsibility as a developer to change what I think and feel to suit the client/customer. They are paying me to provide software that suits their need, not have me dictate what their needs should be, and then demand money for it.
Also in response to that, I understand their needs first, but part of what I offer to my clients is to listen to their ideas, and give them direction on the business side of it. I've had clients that will throw themselves off budget and off timeline over and over with additional requests, that are well aware that they are doing it. As long as you dont attack them personally you can totally tell a client their idea sucks, as long as you give them enough reasons why, and suggest a different alternative. After all they are just suggestions, they in the end are the ones who make the decision. You didn't take away their free will, right?
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:22 am
by Jenk
Agile development, and Scrum development tackle every woe listed so far, and tackle them very well, without the need for any fancy mind games. I have no quarms with telling a client I refuse to do the work, if I am sure it is unfeasible or sometimes even immoral work (such as refusing to build a website for a client that want to catalog snuff films..)
Having a scope dumped on you and being asked for a ballpark is fine, give a 50% confidence and a 90% confidence range, so you're only 50% confident you'll finish the prject in 6 months, but 90% confident it'll be finished within a year. (sidenote: It's impossible to give a 100% confidence estimate)
Extra requests? Fine, add them to the backlog, and soon enough they will drop to the back of the queue as the user will be prioritising everything else on top of it. You'll be releasing early and often, so they'll see for themselves the value of their requests.
Consulting is also something we do, but we (like every decent consultant should) just tell it straight, and if they still want to go ahead, that's their problem.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:04 am
by matthijs
Haven't studied those sites in detail, but I can say that there's nothing wrong with learning a bit more about different personalities, how people communicate and how you can deal with those differences. To make sure you communicate well with those people. To make sure what you say is understood. And which sometimes means you get what you want.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:21 am
by josh
Yep, I'm not saying anyone should not tell the facts straight, but you can explain the same facts differently, to better get your point across. Mind games is a bad word, its just a tool.. Like a hammer, you could use it for good or bad its just there for educational purposes
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:06 am
by Jenk
jshpro2 wrote:Yep, I'm not saying anyone should not tell the facts straight, but you can explain the same facts differently, to better get your point across. Mind games is a bad word, its just a tool.. Like a hammer, you could use it for good or bad its just there for educational purposes
That I agree with. I'm against the idea that you
should manipulate your clients, though.
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:31 pm
by josh
I agree, a lot of the psycology tricks are useful for general marketing too though. When I watch TV recently I have been training myself to identify which parts of the commercial are trying to play to my reptilian needs ( for instance a commercial selling a hot tub will show beatiful wemon, the guy will have a beer, be SMILING laughing having fun, etc... ) these all pump your emotions which provide more justification for you to break bread on the hot tub. Did the commercial take away me free will or manipulate me?
Re: "programming" people
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:13 pm
by josh
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lookatitanotherway
Another interesting article that articulates the ideas a lot better. Sorry to double post and bump but I found it useful