The American Election

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panic!
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Re: The American Election

Post by panic! »

PCSpectra wrote: The idea of distrobution of wealth is unfare. Why should Joe Schmoe get any of the earnings of Joe Dough when Joe Dough worked smarter not harder? That is what makes the free enterprise systems like the USA, Canada, etc work. Take that away and your not a free enterprise, are you? Now you have Government interfering with the earning potential of 'smarter' individuals and sharing the wealth to everyone. While it makes sense for the majority, in the long run it will hurt the system.
This epitomises when people see when they look at American attitudes. It's all about being BIGGER, GROWING, HAVING MORE MONEY and not about the overall happiness and health of the nation. Look at countries with strong socialist* elements (Sweden, Denmark, France) they all 'spread the wealth around'. People who earn more..are taxed a little bit more. People who earn less are taxed a bit less. And the result? The happiest countries in the world.

As I've said in another post, I am taxed more in my country because I earn above the national average. I'm happy to contribute (In theory) towards the overall well being of my society and the people around me. If caring about my country and it's citizens makes me a dirty, scum bag, unpatriotic piece of sh*t socialist queer terrorist. So be it.

*I'm using the word socialist in the same way an American would, not in the true sense of the word
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Re: The American Election

Post by josh »

PCSpectra wrote:
If you look around the world, there is the most incentive to compete where there are stable and well regulated markets. We are now living through competition killing period where the lack of stability and regulation has hindered our ability to grow and prosper.
Not sure I follow you on that. :?

The markets are unstable around the world because anything that happens in the States will percolate into the world economy.
in a good economy if a farmer needs $500 to plant wheat, a banker would lend him the money based on the fact the farmer would be able to pay a return on that loan. The farmer could then turn around and sell the wheat to a bread manufacturer at a markup over what it cost him/her to produce the wheat, the bread manufacturer would then add their markup, etc... In an economy where more money has been created then what the market can actually sustain the banker can no longer afford the risk of lending to the farmer ( what if the crop goes bad, what if the farmer misappropriates funds, etc.. ) as a result cost of wheat goes up, cost of bread goes up, which adds to the effect over the over-inflated currency. Ron Paul's policy is to abolish the Federal Reserve and back our currency with something meaningful (gold?). Crazy? maybe.. smart.. yes
PCSpectra wrote:I think business is always about competition killing.
I think viewing business like that is why a lot of businesses fail, they eventually stop paying attention to the connection between the end user need and the money that comes in, in essence they begin to focus too much on their marketing or competition while ignoring real user needs
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Re: The American Election

Post by josh »

panic! wrote:
PCSpectra wrote: The idea of distrobution of wealth is unfare. Why should Joe Schmoe get any of the earnings of Joe Dough when Joe Dough worked smarter not harder? That is what makes the free enterprise systems like the USA, Canada, etc work. Take that away and your not a free enterprise, are you? Now you have Government interfering with the earning potential of 'smarter' individuals and sharing the wealth to everyone. While it makes sense for the majority, in the long run it will hurt the system.
This epitomises when people see when they look at American attitudes. It's all about being BIGGER, GROWING, HAVING MORE MONEY and not about the overall happiness and health of the nation. Look at countries with strong socialist* elements (Sweden, Denmark, France) they all 'spread the wealth around'. People who earn more..are taxed a little bit more. People who earn less are taxed a bit less. And the result? The happiest countries in the world.

As I've said in another post, I am taxed more in my country because I earn above the national average. I'm happy to contribute (In theory) towards the overall well being of my society and the people around me. If caring about my country and it's citizens makes me a dirty, scum bag, unpatriotic piece of sh*t socialist queer terrorist. So be it.

*I'm using the word socialist in the same way an American would, not in the true sense of the word
What meaning of socialist do you mean by how an American would? Communism doesn't work either that's already been proven, the problem isn't with Capitalism I believe. I believe the source of our problems is the level of lobbying between corporations and the government ( both the executive and congressional branches ). There has to be Capitalism to promote free enterprise, and at the same time a large gap between the upper and lower class is the demise of every great civilization in history. I think too many people are looking for some Utopia system, I think we're as close as we're ever going to get.
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panic!
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Re: The American Election

Post by panic! »

jshpro2 wrote: What meaning of socialist do you mean by how an American would?
In the run up to this Election I see the words: socialism, communism and basically anything-that-involves-not-giving-millionaires-tax-breaks-and-we-will-use-to-instill-fear-into-American's-minds labeled as socialism in the American media. In fairness I've seen some outlets pick up on the discrepancy.
jshpro2 wrote: Communism doesn't work either that's already been proven.
I agree.
jshpro2 wrote: I think too many people are looking for some Utopia system, I think we're as close as we're ever going to get.
I don't think we will ever get to a pure Utopia because we are..let's face it: Animals. But I disagree this is close as 'we' are ever going to get...There are probably 20 countries in the world that are far more 'Utopian' than the United States. Maybe they don't have as much money, guns and McDonalds as the United States. But they are overall healthier, happier and more cuture rich.

Don't see me as anti-American. I love America, I love and enjoy many of it's contributions to the world but I think there are happier and more successful models of how to run a country.
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Re: The American Election

Post by Cirdan »

Obama's "spread the wealth" comment really scares me. If he really is socialistic(his friends, anyone?) its really going to kill the American economy. It also shows Obama has different ideas than what his teleprompter has conditioned him to say.

It's nice if you give half your lunch to your friend because he forgot his. It is not nice if the teacher makes you do it.

It is love if you peruse a woman/man and marry them. It is not true love when your parents force you to marry the person.

It is nice to give your money to those in need. It is not nice if the government forces you to do it. I'd rather the government do stuff to encourage people to donate to charities, instead of forcing everyone to help out.
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panic!
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Re: The American Election

Post by panic! »

Do you refuse to pay taxes then?
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Re: The American Election

Post by Cirdan »

panic! wrote:Do you refuse to pay taxes then?
No because taxes are needed for the government to function, and to support our army.
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panic!
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Re: The American Election

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arborint, I rarely disagree with anything you say. This thread is no exception.
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panic!
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Re: The American Election

Post by panic! »

Cirdan wrote:
panic! wrote:Do you refuse to pay taxes then?
No because taxes are needed for the government to function, and to support our army.
But you're being forced to do it? You don't like that. Should the government just encourage people to pay taxes instead of forcing them?
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Re: The American Election

Post by Christopher »

jshpro2 wrote:Communism doesn't work either that's already been proven, the problem isn't with Capitalism I believe.
I think the Chinese might disagree with you. They are soon to pass the US and become the worlds biggest economy. In 1960 the political competition was between Capitalism, Socialism and Communism. In 1960 the programming competition was between Cobol, Fortran and Algol. Programmers aren't talking about those languages anymore -- why the heck is anyone still talking those political theories anymore! Countries pick and choose from those ideas and many new ideas. Those terms have become hollow placeholders used by various political outlooks. Look at the major economies and you will see a mix of central planning and market forces, government and private ownership, etc. And they all seem to be headed to fairly standard mix.
jshpro2 wrote:I believe the source of our problems is the level of lobbying between corporations and the government ( both the executive and congressional branches ).
I agree that is one problem. It is an area where we struggle to balance the regulation. Certainly business should have a voice. It is fine tuning the balance...
jshpro2 wrote:I think too many people are looking for some Utopia system, I think we're as close as we're ever going to get.
I think we will get a lot closer. We humans are constantly working to improve our implementations in every area... ;)
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Re: The American Election

Post by Cirdan »

panic! wrote:
Cirdan wrote:
panic! wrote:Do you refuse to pay taxes then?
No because taxes are needed for the government to function, and to support our army.
But you're being forced to do it? You don't like that. Should the government just encourage people to pay taxes instead of forcing them?
Taxes are being used by the government to run itself. I do not want the government taking my money and redistributing it to those who need help, to the poor, to the lazy and to the illegal aliens. If the government gives money to the poor, why should I work? I should stop working and let the government give me money.
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Re: The American Election

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Cirdan wrote:Taxes are being used by the government to run itself.
Yeah ... and then there is all that misc. stuff like the military and police and firefighters and roads and ports and water and courts. Just a bunch of stuff you could probably do without anyway.
Cirdan wrote:I do not want the government taking my money and redistributing it to those who need help, to the poor, to the lazy and to the illegal aliens.
Except that almost none of your taxes go to poor and lazy people. I think the military and retirement for people who worked hard all their lives are the biggest shares. Sounds pretty unworthy to me. If you hate taxes then you got to hate the US military. Man, we really redistribute a bunch of our wealth to them.
Cirdan wrote:If the government gives money to the poor, why should I work? I should stop working and let the government give me money.
Good idea ... I hear being poor is really fun. Everybody is striving to be poor. It's supposed to be great! Plus, business loves the poor because the make such great customers.
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Re: The American Election

Post by Bill H »

Experience is useful if the same thing happens over and over. It is not useful if something entirely new happens. It is disasterous if something new happens that looks like something that happened before but is actually different. In the latter two cases judgement and temperament are far more valuable than experience.
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Re: The American Election

Post by onion2k »

Cirdan wrote:It is nice to give your money to those in need. It is not nice if the government forces you to do it. I'd rather the government do stuff to encourage people to donate to charities, instead of forcing everyone to help out.
Unfortunately though most people are selfish. They won't give to charity if it means they have less themselves. Otherwise they'd already be giving.

If you look at the quality of life in socialist countries you'll find it's actually a lot higher than most capitalist nations overall, and the gap between rich and poor is much less polarised. Countries like Sweden are really nice places to live whether you're rich or poor. Isn't that something to aspire to as a nation? It's all very well being wealthy and having nice things, but if you step out of your door and see people living in poverty you're never going to be happy. Or, rather, you shouldn't be. I guess some people are happy to ignore the plight of other people...

(Sweden is socialist in the economic sense, not in the Marxist/Leninist sense.. there's very little parallel with communism)
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Re: The American Election

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Cirdan wrote:If the government gives money to the poor, why should I work?
Because you want to be a decent functioning member of your community? Because you want to help your country grow? Because by working you can pay taxes that help people less fortunate than yourself? Do you really think the only reason to work is to get money for yourself?
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