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The American Election

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:34 pm
by omniuni
May we have a simple poll to see where the candidates for president stand with the community with the provision of no political arguing and allowing only + $candidateName to show support?

I had created this, and then deleted it after realizing it might be too political for the forum rules, my apologies if someone saw it and got offended.

Re: Political Poll

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:04 am
by onion2k
I think we can suspend the 'no politics' rule for a few days* and see how a politics thread works out. The US election is a big deal, and interesting, and potentially something that could affect web development in the long term given each of the candidates stance on things like technology and net neutrality. But rest assured that if this thread turns into a big argument I won't hesitate to delete it. So keep it civil. Insulting anyone over their choice will get you a warning.

As for a poll, this forum isn't predominantly American, so Obama would be the clear winner ... he is pretty much everywhere other than the USA http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/ ... he'd certainly get my vote if I were in America.



* If an admin wishes to overrule this just delete the thread.

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:13 pm
by JayBird
I think we can let this run as long as it stays sensible. First sign of anyone getting unruly and it gets closed.

Re: Political Poll

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:16 pm
by JayBird
onion2k wrote:As for a poll, this forum isn't predominantly American, so Obama would be the clear winner ... he is pretty much everywhere other than the USA http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/ ... he'd certainly get my vote if I were in America.
Thats interesting, not seen that before

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:59 pm
by alex.barylski
I'm not sure where I stand...

I think McCain deserves the title...he's certainly paid his dues having served 3 or some years in a POW camp and refusing to be set free unless his commrades were released as well...that speaks volumes of his character and dedication to one's country. He also has the experience in politics.

Unfortunately life is not fare and Obama will probably win, due to his marketability. He tells people what they want to hear not what they need to hear, and thats what wins you in politics. The Canadian election resulted in the same thing, with the liberal candidate losing to the conservative leader, despite the fact the liberal candidate clearly had more genuine intentions.

It raises interesting questions in human nature, in most of our abilities to think for ourselves and lead ourselves. Most people need to be told that they want or think, perhaps not explicitly but subconsciously I'm sure of it. I see this habit in myself, constantly seeking approval or direction from others, even when I know deep down I have the right answer or solution. Not just in development, but every aspect of life...

Anyways, I like Obama, he seems a nice guy, although I believe he is mostly being voted in based on his skin color and not credentials. Sure he's different, he's young and he's not white, but he's still a politician and more importantly human. He won't be that different but I guess that is politics. People are only as effective as their leaders make them and people seem sold he's a better leader...

I recently watched a news clip where Obama was quoted sa saying he visited all "57 states" and he refered to the Canadian Prime Minister as "the president of Canada". Both are mistakes that for me personally, while small, are quite significant in hilighting the lack of political prowess. I wouldnt' vote him in but I don't live in the States, so I only sit back and watch. Admittedly I only heard those two statements as quick as a few seconds each, so they could have been taken out of context by the media, who knows.

I do like his promise to stop offshoring jobs (I assume he means manufacturing, especially automotive) and I wonder if that applies to software and technology...

EA just announced their cutting their workforce by 6%...

You know what I never understood about outsourcing or specifically offshoring...

While it might make sense to do so to reduce costs initially when your the first or second to do so, once every starts offshoring, the economy suffers because so many locals lose jobs, they can no longer afford to buy the very product or service the companies are selling, so really what good does it do when everyone follows the bandwagon and offshores business?

It's a oduble edge sword. On one hand, to keep your work force local surely means loosing money and eventually going bankrupt due to competitors being more cost effective. Yet no one is going to keep their work force local because of competition. If you don't do it someone else will.

That is unless the government interjects and prevents offshoring, etc...

I wish life didn't have to be so unfare, I struggle with that daily...

Cheers,
Alex

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:56 am
by onion2k
I respect McCain for what he did as a POW, but I don't really see how it has a baring on his politics. And besides, he's really old. There's a good chance he wouldn't survive the whole term and then Palin would be president which would be an unmitigated disaster.

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:29 am
by Bill H
I think McCain deserves the title...
I don't think that's really intrinsic to our politics, and when it does enter the scene, it tends to be considered a negative. One of the huge negatives against Hillary was that she felt that she deserved the office.
Obama would be the clear winner ... he is pretty much everywhere other than the USA
That always blows my mind and, to me, does not speak well for my country.

Whic probably reveals my preference.

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:15 am
by josh
They're all puppets, even Obama... take a look at Ron Paul's policies, the other candidates have none, only charisma.

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:16 am
by omniuni
I first think that while I respect, or rather respected McCain for his experience, his choice in Palin as a VP candidate belies what we could expect from him as a president. I don't want to think this, but what else CAN I think? The candidate that touted experience as a feature to distinguish himself from a "risky" and "untested" candidate chose someone like Palin?

That said, Obama's lack of experience had been something that troubled me. I was pleased with his choice of Biden as VP because it shows that an Obama presidency would rely on other more experienced people to make decisions where experience matters, in particular, foreign policy.

It is no argument which candidate is better suited to diplomacy: the world is predominantly Obama, there must be a reason. Even with a lack of experience, the world trusts that they could work with him. I hope that during this election, the United States shows that they want to work with the world.

McCain has a long and good record. He has, for me, ruined it with his antics during this election. It makes me worry that he does not take the idea seriously enough of being president. I am not ready to trust the future of my country to someone who I can't trust to truly put the country first. Palin was, if anything, a popularity stunt. When it comes to putting the country first, that is NOT the way to do it.

On fiscal issues.
I think about it like this. Science shows that every time energy is passed on, only 10% is usable to the next level. Cows get 10% of energy from grass, and a person gets 10% of that energy from the cow. Distribution of wealth is the same way, and it is why the "trickle down effect" doesn't work. If you give a wealthy citizen $5,000 back from taxes, they might get a $1,000 television, most of which goes back to the big manufacturer or the store which sold the set, and maybe a few hundred dollars go towards paying the actual employees who need the money. It simply makes more sense to pass policies that directly target the people who need money. This INCLUDES small business owners. The republican party is for BIG business, not SMALL business. I want to start a small computer store, and I want a democrat, not a republican in office when I do so.

On Social issues.
We live in America. Here, everyones right is supposed to be protected. The rights of the poor. The rights of the religious minority. The rights of people who choose different life styles. Passing laws that PROHIBIT certain actions don't say "we're protecting the majority" they say "we're suppressing minorities". If a law is passed against abortion, it makes it an absolute, not a choice. If a law is passed against certain marriages, it makes it impossible for these people to get the tax breaks any other pair would. Do these things, in particular things like abortion need control? Yes. Certainly. But we must be careful to not tread on peoples RIGHTS when we choose laws to pass.

On Foreign policy.
I'll be short here. Listen to the WORLD. We are a powerful country, but we are not Godly. We still have to listen to what we're told. We need to listen to our allies. And to be honest, we need to be a little more concerned about our own preservation than other countries that have just about had enough of our interference.

In short; I think it's time for change. It's time for America to be a little more concerned about its own future. We need to care for our environment. (Palin: You WANT to drill for oil in your OWN STATE!?) We need to care for our people. We need to help the "Joe the Plumber" that has a broken down truck that barely gets him from job to job, not "Joe the Plumber" who hasn't touched a pipe in 20 years because he sits behind a desk and skims off the top of jobs he gives to his minimum wage employees. We need friends in this world. We need an administration for the people. Not the rich people. The people that make up over 80% of the country. People like me.

And if I ever get rich enough that the democrats taxes hit me harder?

I'll pay them proudly; they allowed ME to succeed when I needed it.

@jshpro2: I love Ron Paul and his ideals. I bet he's a great guy... even if he is INSANE! :lol:

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:58 am
by Christopher
I think it is important to look at this US election from the perspective of some major events that took place before many people in this forum were born. Voters in the US have maintained a pretty conservative outlook for the last 40 years or so. That is in large part because of the major changes that happened in the 1960's to give some legal rights to people who were not white males. Those major changes have naturally caused the people in the US take some time to adjust to them. Since many US citizens in this forum have only lived in the polarized aftermath of those decisions, they perhaps don't think of the historical sweep of this process.

So rather than thinking about this detail or that detail about each candidate, you might want to ask whether the people of the US (and yourself if you are a voter) need a few more years to digest those big changes, or if we are ready to start down the road to the next set of changes in 10 to 20 years?

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:46 pm
by josh
I believe the problem is that we are not a democracy but the majority of our citizens think we are. We elect higher officials to represent us ( "choose" FOR us. sounds like distributed facism to me ). That being said we are also capitalists, we vote with our dollar so to speak, which gives the rich people more power who can tend to be out of touch with their lower class counterparts and the effects their actions have on everyday American people. If a politician gives tax breaks to the higher class, offloading debt onto the lower class the rich will vote for them to spare themselves tax dollars, I see tons of attorneys and such with Mccain Palins signs.

He also reminds me of Bush whenever a reporter starts interrogating him he freezes up, gets uneasy with his body language, blinks excessively, all this communicates to me is his incompetent, if he can't control his emotions and therefore his own mental state under election & media pressure, how is he going to make the best decision for society ( and the world ) when he's under even more pressure later?

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:41 pm
by alex.barylski
onion2k wrote:I respect McCain for what he did as a POW, but I don't really see how it has a baring on his politics. And besides, he's really old. There's a good chance he wouldn't survive the whole term and then Palin would be president which would be an unmitigated disaster.
A politician is an individual who represents a country or community of people, so ideally we elect politicians who put their country first, not their own self interests or ideals. Unfortunately 99% of politicians put their own interests first, that is simply the nature of the game I guess. Which is why people elect individuals who they best connect with and not nessecarily those with the countries best interest at heart.
jshpro2 wrote:They're all puppets, even Obama... take a look at Ron Paul's policies, the other candidates have none, only charisma.
Funny enough. I had a friend who was Iraq who moved to the states as a young boy then eventually to Canada. He claimed presidental status was nothing more than a smoke show or diversion for congress. Basically suggesting they were nothing more than puppets like a CEO that reports to a board of directors before making an executive decision.

Politics is a joke...McCain selecta young beaufitul woman to appeal to the female demographic and Obama selects Biden who is like McCain and a grey haired old man...only a democrat instead of republican.
It is no argument which candidate is better suited to diplomacy: the world is predominantly Obama, there must be a reason. Even with a lack of experience, the world trusts that they could work with him. I hope that during this election, the United States shows that they want to work with the world.
People are tired of war and Obama is more pro-peace which personally I think is wishful thinking but time will tell. Other than that, the world should actually favour McCain as Obama wants to stop offshoring, disrupt/stop NAFTA, etc. Canada for instance would probably benefit more from McCain than Obama as McCain has said he would consider re-negotiating NAFTA.

Of course this election isn't about Canada, I'm just saying, considering were their closest neighbours, if we get screwed over, where do you think the rest of the world sits on his list of priorities? :P
In short; I think it's time for change. It's time for America to be a little more concerned about its own future. We need to care for our environment. (Palin: You WANT to drill for oil in your OWN STATE!?) We need to care for our people. We need to help the "Joe the Plumber" that has a broken down truck that barely gets him from job to job, not "Joe the Plumber" who hasn't touched a pipe in 20 years because he sits behind a desk and skims off the top of jobs he gives to his minimum wage employees. We need friends in this world. We need an administration for the people. Not the rich people. The people that make up over 80% of the country. People like me.
It's time for a change every 4 years. Every politician talks about change. The fact the rich keep getting richer and the poor get poorer...well thats just reality good luck changing that. The fact is, some people work a lot harder than others and therefore deserve what they get. Joe the plumber who struggles, probably struggles because he fails to meet the minimum requirements of running a successful business. This coming from an indivdual who has struggled running a business for years.

The idea of distrobution of wealth is unfare. Why should Joe Schmoe get any of the earnings of Joe Dough when Joe Dough worked smarter not harder? That is what makes the free enterprise systems like the USA, Canada, etc work. Take that away and your not a free enterprise, are you? Now you have Government interfering with the earning potential of 'smarter' individuals and sharing the wealth to everyone. While it makes sense for the majority, in the long run it will hurt the system.

If there is no incentive to grow and prosper...smart business men will probably leave and find a new life else where leaving all those other businesses to struggle on their own.

The point is...there is a catch 22 to everything...it could go either way...the grass is always greener on the other side until you realize your on the septic tank. :P
He also reminds me of Bush whenever a reporter starts interrogating him he freezes up, gets uneasy with his body language, blinks excessively, all this communicates to me is his incompetent, if he can't control his emotions and therefore his own mental state under election & media pressure, how is he going to make the best decision for society ( and the world ) when he's under even more pressure later?
Funny...personally that is where I feel he has more experience. Obama tends to use words like ummm and ahhh almost like logical connectives. :P While he is a more eloquent speaker (isn't that word everyone likes to use?) his use of "umm' drives me nutts. :lol:

I wouldn't make a good politician...I'd freeze and stutter like a mad man...and probably punch the camera man or something. :P

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:26 pm
by Christopher
PCSpectra wrote:The idea of distrobution of wealth is unfare. Why should Joe Schmoe get any of the earnings of Joe Dough when Joe Dough worked smarter not harder? That is what makes the free enterprise systems like the USA, Canada, etc work. Take that away and your not a free enterprise, are you? Now you have Government interfering with the earning potential of 'smarter' individuals and sharing the wealth to everyone. While it makes sense for the majority, in the long run it will hurt the system.
Modern democracies have had graduated taxation for a very long time. It has never hindered free enterprise. It is the trade-off with the unfairness that there are rich and poor. It is interesting that the rich rarely complain about it. It is something politicians use to rile up people for whom it matters little.
PCSpectra wrote:If there is no incentive to grow and prosper...smart business men will probably leave and find a new life else where leaving all those other businesses to struggle on their own.
If you look around the world, there is the most incentive to compete where there are stable and well regulated markets. We are now living through competition killing period where the lack of stability and regulation has hindered our ability to grow and prosper.
PCSpectra wrote:The point is...there is a catch 22 to everything...it could go either way...the grass is always greener on the other side until you realize your on the septic tank. :P
I think the world, humankind, and what we have achieved in the in modern democracies is pretty amazing. The foundation of law, the ability to pool our resources for the common good, yet maintaining the freedom for individuals to strive and take risks. I am pretty hopeful.

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:42 pm
by alex.barylski
It is the trade-off with the unfairness that there are rich and poor
While your point is interesting...I would just like to state that being poor is not unfare in a free enterprise system. It's been proven many times by people more poor than you or me that with enough will and dedication you can turn your life around financially.
If you look around the world, there is the most incentive to compete where there are stable and well regulated markets. We are now living through competition killing period where the lack of stability and regulation has hindered our ability to grow and prosper.
Not sure I follow you on that. :?

The markets are unstable around the world because anything that happens in the States will percolate into the world economy. I think business is always about competition killing.
I think the world, humankind, and what we have achieved in the in modern democracies is pretty amazing. The foundation of law, the ability to pool our resources for the common good, yet maintaining the freedom for individuals to strive and take risks. I am pretty hopeful.
Agreed. I'm hopeful too. :drunk:

Re: The American Election

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:08 pm
by Christopher
PCSpectra wrote:While your point is interesting...I would just like to state that being poor is not unfare in a free enterprise system. It's been proven many times by people more poor than you or me that with enough will and dedication you can turn your life around financially.
I agree that there is opportunity, but I seriously doubt that you think that the children of the poor have the same opportunity as the children of the rich, given the same amount of will and dedication.
PCSpectra wrote:The markets are unstable around the world because anything that happens in the States will percolate into the world economy. I think business is always about competition killing.
No, those are the result of our screw-ups in maintaining stability because of lack of regulation. I mean that in modern democracies we enjoy much more stable markets because of better regulation that the rest of the world. Many countries can get very little investment because of their instability due lack of regulation. Market stability enables investment. Good regulation provides stability and enables competition by leveling the playing field. That are what capitalism thrives on.