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Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:15 am
by volomike
This was hilarious. And sad.

http://giveupandusetables.com/

How many of us have been here? Where we get so frustrated with IE6 and IE7 tweaks to get DIVs to float and position right to the point we want to scream, especially when doing forms with the understanding that people may have smaller or large font sizes than our own browser, and we just give up and use tables on a few tasks.

There's rumor that perhaps M$ might use Webkit in something like an IE9 or IE10. Let's hope that day comes. I mean, if I get something working in FF, I almost have no trouble at all getting things to work in Safari or Opera (webkit-based browsers). So it would be good to see IE work like that. But don't hold your breath.

And have you ever taken an IE6 browser and tried to surf the Microsoft site? It's error city. Even Microsoft has given up on supporting IE6, while the rest of us still have clients who need us to support IE6.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:37 am
by infolock
haha, that site is awesome

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:06 am
by alex.barylski
I still occassionally throw in a table or two when CSS just doesn't cut it.

Mostly though I've done pretty good at keeping XHTML tabless layout for both applications and web sites.

I find XHTML/CSS/JavaScript the most frustrating chores though so if I was paid enough I would gladly outsource those activities to someone interested in struggling with caveats.

I ABSOLUTELY HATE IT!!! :banghead: :lol:

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:27 am
by panic!
There is no excuse for using a table for non-tabular data in my opinion.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:29 am
by alex.barylski
That should be in your experience...

I have asked several CSS pros about my web site and was told this was the case for a table...I can't remember what the issue was if it's even an issue anymore...

I believe it was the footer overlapping the FORM or content...

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:42 pm
by panic!
Well I am a CSS pro, I do CSS professionally. haha I've never, ever come across a situation where a table can do something CSS can't. I've worked on sites with O'Niell, Sony, Nintendo, WB, Agent Provocateur, Oasis, Dunhill etc etc and never had a situation where a table HAD to be used, So even though I'm only 22 (edit: 23, it was my birthday 2 days ago) I'd say my experience is as good as a lot of peoples.
I'd love to see the example and be proved wrong though! (not in a sarcastic way, would be an interesting lesson to see. :))

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:33 pm
by volomike
panic! wrote:Well I am a CSS pro...I've never, ever come across a situation where a table can do something CSS can't....I'd love to see the example and be proved wrong...
Such a challenge. I may take you up on it some day, champ. I've had deadlines and days like this: :banghead:

I'll PM you should the need arise.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:57 pm
by Eran
I've worked on sites with O'Niell, Sony, Nintendo, WB, Agent Provocateur, Oasis, Dunhill etc etc and never had a situation where a table HAD to be used
No offense, but those aren't really web companies... building portfolio and marketing sites is nice and well, however web applications stress the browser's capabilities much more. It doesn't happen often, but some very fluid layouts require the use of tables to work properly in the common offender (IE6).

Take a look a google calendar for example, and try to reproduce the same fluid layout without any tables. And note that they don't use tables for the tabular data in the calendar (actually there they use divs).

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:08 pm
by alex.barylski
I'd love to see the example and be proved wrong though! (not in a sarcastic way, would be an interesting lesson to see. :))
I'd be very curious to see how you solve the issue on my web site. :)

Wasn't it you that told me to use tables? Haha. It was someone who frequents the client forum. :)

I know CSS like I do Regex or Linux...I understand most ramifications and can accomlish most things with a little assistance from someone more experience than myself.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:25 pm
by JAB Creations
My site is tableless and works in Internet Explorer 4 and Opera 4.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:28 pm
by JAB Creations
Here have at it...
http://www.oldapps.com/opera.htm

...and the stand alone IE4 requires you to CTRL+O to open URL's.

This stuff isn't hard so long as you have a respectable understanding of CSS.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:14 am
by panic!
Sorry, I hope I didn't sound too arrogant throwing around client-names like that.

Well the thing about big companies is they're anal about getting things to look right in every ****ing browser and I've never needed to resort to tables, so that's why I think it's relevant. The NHS are the worst at guarding their branding, you could only use 5 colours. I think they've expanded the pallet now.

I'm not trying to make out I'm a CSS god but I'm more than willing to help people with CSS tableless stuff for IE6 and above. And I hope no one thinks I am criticising their ability we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:19 am
by JAB Creations
Unless you're doing some SEO techniques like I do at my site (menu visually at the top though all content (starting with the only h1 element on any given page) directly after the body element) then you can do any page layout with only CSS1 (and of course validate it only as CSS1.

...and on top of that Internet Explorer 4+ and Opera 4+ both handle CSS1 layouts perfectly without the need for secondary style sheets or any hacks or special techniques of any kind.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:03 am
by Eran
Sorry, I hope I didn't sound too arrogant throwing around client-names like that.
Not at all, I understood where you were coming from. I pointed out though that web application development is different to normal sites, and implementing complicated dynamic UI sometimes requires hacks beyond CSS to work properly in all browsers.

Re: Give Up And Use Tables

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:55 am
by matthijs
Don't forget we have css tables now.

display : table;
display : table-cell;

Now that IE8 will support them too we can all convert our hacky css or table-based layouts to real css.