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Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:21 am
by VladSun
Seriously?!?!
Linux is even more count-intuitive then Vista and Windows 7.
Just because it's not XP doesn't make it count-intuitive...
Try installing Opera without the console in Linux or that list of programs from the installer package thing.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&o ... tu+install
Linux is still an Os that really only appeals to those who don't mind spending time in a console instead of producing.
Yes - Linux is an OS. Try working with some distro instead. And if you don't like console, install a window manager or choose a distro which has one in it.
Also you can't disable the page file in *nix systems or if you can it's hidden.
??? What you are talking about?
Swap? - try swapoff/swapon -
http://linux.die.net/man/8/swapoff
Linux is a web server OS.
Do not be ridicilous ... What's a "web server OS"?
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=78025
...and I've seen some of the start menus on various distros of Linux and only Ubuntu executes it correctly.
You mean like in WinXP???
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:11 am
by JAB Creations
I won't disagree that Linux has many strong points but it's simply not ready. I don't have to search to figure out how to install something on OS X or Windows. There is a GUI option to disable the page file (virtual memory is physical memory + page file from what I've read) in Windows, I've never seen anything in OS X or any desktop environment.
You've got to remember, I'm much more of a designer then a developer. Developers make things work, designers make them work better. Good design is about reducing the steps to achieve something, making things easy to find, adaptable to user's preferences, and minimizing the frustration a user encounters when attempting to achieve their goals.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:18 am
by mintedjo
YOU TELL 'EM VLADSUN!
LINUX OWNS YOU ALL!
And
..don't mind spending time in a console instead of producing.
is nonsense
Most people only use a console because it's more productive to do so. If you aren't comfortable using a console then don't, and in most cases you won't be missing anything, but some things can be done faster and more efficiently in a console.
If people consider XP an upgrade from Vista: wow, I cannot imagine the horrible experience Vista must be...
Yeah I think Vista is a pile of cow dung
People actually pay for that?
Not all people... Some people get illegal copies (corporate editions let you get all the updates).
And of course most PCs come with Windows installed. Given the choice of a PC with windows or a Mac of the same spec that costs twice as much I know what my piggy bank would say.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:31 am
by matthijs
mintedjo wrote:
Not all people... Some people get illegal copies (corporate editions let you get all the updates).
And of course most PCs come with Windows installed. Given the choice of a PC with windows or a Mac of the same spec that costs twice as much I know what my piggy bank would say.
Yes, and that's the problem I guess. Most people just want cheap. But cheap and quality don't go well together usually. If I had charged even as little as €5/hour for every time I have helped some family member or friend fix his computer I'd be rich. "Fix" means anything here, from re-installing XP to getting their internet connection working, trying to remove a virus, etc.
I have (almost) stopped helping people nowadays. I just tell them I can't help them either or they should just buy another new crappy €250 pc. It just takes too much time.
Anyway, back to the quality thing. Every craftsman can tell you that if you buy a €50 drill, you can't expect it to drill more then a few simple holes. Any more serious work and it breaks down or isn't capable. While with a €200 drill you can. Now with computers people buy a €300 pc and still expect it to work. Well it's not going to.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:49 am
by JAB Creations
mintedjo wrote:Not all people... Some people get illegal copies (corporate editions let you get all the updates).
Maybe with a hack, always stayed away from those.
matthijs wrote:I just tell them I can't help them either or they should just buy another new crappy €250 pc. It just takes too much time.
I make $40 an hour rounded out helping people clean out, update, and organize their systems. They end up running faster then new usually too.
...and I'm not entirely against Linux and the console. Many console commands have functions in the chat room I've been working on in example.

Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:57 am
by VladSun
Again, I'm not going to agree.
JAB Creations wrote:I won't disagree that Linux has many strong points but it's simply not ready. I don't have to search to figure out how to install something on OS X or Windows.
People that have used Linux for years say the same for Windows - so Windows is not ready either, right?
JAB Creations wrote:There is a GUI option to disable the page file (virtual memory is physical memory + page file from what I've read) in Windows, I've never seen anything in OS X or any desktop environment.
A GUI *must* not run as superuser - that's for sure! And only the superuser should be able to swapoff/on ...
JAB Creations wrote:You've got to remember, I'm much more of a designer then a developer. Developers make things work, designers make them work better. Good design is about reducing the steps to achieve something, making things easy to find, adaptable to user's preferences, and minimizing the frustration a user encounters when attempting to achieve their goals.
People that have used Linux for years find KDE/Gnome etc. very ergonomic, while they can't say the same for Windows - so Windows sux, right?
PS: I think it's called "Ergonomics" and while it's part of the design, it's a very specific area - so, not every designer can do this

Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:00 am
by josh
JAB Creations wrote:You're not supposed to SEARCH the start menu! Holy H&*%! I don't think you've spent any time Ubuntu after having read that! Did you also not look at my start menu in the screenshot I took a couple extra minutes to post?
Mac ( which is unix with "sugar" ) uses a spotlight feature, same thing. GNU linux has commands for searching man pages of commands, same concept. Just because your start menu is small doesn't mean there's other people who need more.
Also I don't understand how changing the GUI automatically makes it less usable? It makes it less intuitive since people have to relearn it, but I mean people said the same counter arguments for every modern advancement. I'm not saying any OS is the end -all, either. I wish all my programs would run on linux.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:08 am
by VladSun
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:20 am
by Eran
Lets be honest here, Linux has many advantageous as an OS, but it's geared very heavily to a specific sector of computer users. Even the most advanced linux GUI shipped with some distros is not up to par with Windows / Mac OS and casual users would not get very far using it. It's true that command line is more powerful than GUI - but it is much less accommodating to users (you must use the exact syntax and remember much of it by heart to be productive in any manner). Not to mention user-oriented commercial software support still heavily favours windows (office / collaboration suites).
We use CentOS on our servers but I have WinXP on my development desktop. Even our system admin who is an avid linux supporter runs Windows XP on his desktop. This is just how it is, Linux is several years behind in terms of usability, driver compatability etc.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:27 am
by VladSun
@pytrin
We should have a separate thread for discussing your post - it has so many aspects that it's not fair to steal JAB's thread, though it's almost done

Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:06 pm
by JAB Creations
pytrin wrote:We use CentOS on our servers but I have WinXP on my development desktop. Even our system admin who is an avid linux supporter runs Windows XP on his desktop. This is just how it is, Linux is several years behind in terms of usability, driver compatability etc.
...beautifully said and unfortunately true. I'd love to jump in to Linux but the Linux community still has a ways to go before it's a viable production environment. All the cool 3D effects that put Aero's GUI to shame don't matter if I have to keep going to the console. If the console is so powerful and so great why not make more useful programs that put the console in the back and give the power to the users? The world doesn't need another FTP program, it needs a consumer product that just works!
Yeah we're so

right now though LoL. I intended this to be a Windows 7 is Vista++;
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:19 pm
by JAB Creations
VladSun wrote:@pytrin
We should have a separate thread for discussing your post - it has so many aspects that it's not fair to steal JAB's thread, though it's almost done

I started one for you guys.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=94204
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:47 am
by Benjamin
I'll add some more comments here just from personal experience.
1. For some bizarre reason, from what I consider normal use, I did experience degraded performance in Windows XP after around 6 months of use. After the service packs were installed this wasn't as noticeable, but it DID still occur.
2. For some bizarre reason, windows XP installed just fine on my laptop (which was designed for VISTA), but as time has gone by more and more things stopped working. For example sometimes it would fail to boot, sometimes the sound card wouldn't work. Misc things like that.
3. For some bizarre reason, when I tried to reinstall XP on my laptop this week, I received an error from every installation disk I tried, the error was something related to hi.sys or something like that.
4. Vista installed fine, and seems to be running faster than XP, but is it really? Is it really running faster than XP or is it running faster than XP after 6 months or a year?
So now I feel like MS has forced my hand. I figured I couldn't stay with XP forever, but they aren't driving me to use Vista, they are driving me to use Linux. So now I'm off to find a good distro to put on this laptop.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:56 am
by Stryks
astions wrote:So now I'm off to find a good distro to put on this laptop.
Any thoughts on what you'll go with?
I've been thinking seriously about giving Ubuntu a shot, possibly with Beryl. Either that or Sabayon.
Re: Who else considers XP an UPGRADE from Vista?
Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:28 am
by Still Learning
I'm still using XP myself, but have been on several computers that use Vista. I have to admit, Vista looks and feels great. (So does cocaine however and it seems like Windows is pushing Vista in a similar manner as coke pushers.) Most of my musician friends use CPU intensive programs, and they have all remarked that they had poorer performance with Vista, and have either changed back to XP or Linux.
It's like, when anyone is pushing something so hard, you have to ask yourself, "is this really good for me?"