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Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:11 pm
by Benjamin
Does anyone know anything about Opera font sizes being 1px larger than IE, Chrome, Firefox etc?

It seems that setting a font to 11px via css results in 12px fonts in opera.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:20 pm
by Eran
yes, somehow opera and safari hold themselves to a different standard. I usually use this opera hack to get around that - http://css-tricks.com/is-there-any-dedi ... -or-opera/

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:03 pm
by Benjamin
How can I apply that fix? I researched it and it seems that any styles I place in there would also apply to google chrome, which would result in font sizes for chrome to be too small. Maybe I am missing something.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:38 am
by Eran
Hmm I used that one. There is also this which targets Opera only (scroll down) - http://perishablepress.com/press/2006/0 ... -dumpster/

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:41 am
by onion2k
You shouldn't be using pixel sizes for fonts anyway. They stop people resizing the font to what they want, which breaks all sorts of accessibility guidelines (and laws in some countries).

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:43 am
by Eran
The problem with people resizing the fonts to whatever they want is that it breaks some parts of pixel-perfect layouts. Also, modern browsers completely bypass that by zooming the entire screen and not just the fonts.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:47 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:The problem with people resizing the fonts to whatever they want is that it breaks some parts of pixel-perfect layouts.
Which is why accessible sites are never "pixel perfect" designs, and shouldn't be. Accessibility is an important issue - did you know you can be sued for having an inaccessible website? It's illegal (in the USA and UK at least).
pytrin wrote:Also, modern browsers completely bypass that by zooming the entire screen and not just the fonts.
That's not really the point though. That helps, but not everyone is using a modern browser. Especially people who need to use enabling technologies - they tend to lag a bit behind.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:50 am
by Eran
Which is why accessible sites are never "pixel perfect" designs, and shouldn't be. Accessibility is an important issue - did you know you can be sued for having an inaccessible website? It's illegal (in the USA and UK at least).
Well I'm talking mostly about web applications and not content sites. Some parts of an involved interface requires pixel-perfect precision. Those type of websites are not meant to be used by text-readers anyway. Using pixel sizing for fonts is better than replacing that text with an image to make sure it doesn't break (which a lot of people do)

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:02 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:Well I'm talking mostly about web applications and not content sites.
I'm talking about all web applications, content sites, the lot. The respective Disability Discrimination Acts in the UK and USA cover them all.
pytrin wrote:Some parts of an involved interface requires pixel-perfect precision.
No they don't. Requiring pixel perfect positioning is a sign of very bad web layout to be honest. What happens if the user is on a 1920×1200 monitor (which isn't actually that uncommon)? Your 12px text will be unreadable because it'll be so small. What if they don't run their browser maximised? Computers using the internet are a broad range of targets, and you need to design your application to suit as many users as possible. That means giving them a small amount of control to change things to suit them better.
pytrin wrote:Those type of websites are not meant to be used by text-readers anyway.
I'm not talking about screen-readers. It doesn't matter what size the font is for those. I'm talking about partially sighted users who can read fine so long as the text is big enough. If your application doesn't allow them to resize the text in their browser they can, and occasionally do, sue. And they win. Dismissing accessibility in favour of design is an incredibly short-sighted (arf!) approach to web development.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:08 am
by Eran
No they don't. Requiring pixel perfect positioning is a sign of very bad web layout to be honest. What happens if the user is on a 1920×1200 monitor (which isn't actually that uncommon)? Your 12px text will be unreadable because it'll be so small.
I think you are misunderstanding me here. I'm not talking about site-wide font size, but font-size inside discrete interface elements, such as buttons or next to images. Sometimes those elements have naturally fixed size (such as images) and are positioned not in the normal flow of the document and so the accompanying text has to match the interface element regardless of user preferences. Also, I didn't say pixel-sized text should be 12px, did I? it should be large enough to be readable on all modern resolutions.

Say what you will, but you are welcome to check out our portfolio (in the link in my signature). If you still believe we are very bad at web and interface design, you are completely entitled to that opinion.
they can, and occasionally do, sue. And they win.
Good thing we're not living in the US or UK, huh? people can sue you for crossing the street. By the way, I've never heard of such litigation, and I've seen plenty of very-high profile sites which are next to unusable. Do you have concrete examples of those successful cases?
I wonder if next people could sue traditional companies for making hard to use products or hard to read manuals. Since when ease-of-use was cause for litigation? this seems absurd. You don't like something don't buy from that company - especially on the web, where you mostly don't pay for anything.

Note that I'm not promoting hard to use products or unusable sites, just my thoughts on the absurdity of making those cause for litigation.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:52 am
by onion2k
pytrin wrote:Good thing we're not living in the US or UK, huh?
At least one of your clients is in Argentina. Here's the relevant disability discrimination law: http://www.dredf.org/international/argentina.html The fact the law exists probably means they could be sued if their site isn't accessible to disabled users. By the looks of things it's pretty accessible though, which is good.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:59 am
by Eran
By the looks of things it's pretty accessible though
Part of my point was that pixel-perfect layouts don't have to be inaccessible, just the opposite. However, I still find it absurd that you can get sued over this. Can you show me such cases of successful litigation against websites in the name of accessibility?

I found this interesting article - http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/ ... itigation/
This quote from the comments:
websites are not seen to be a public accommodation - as you correctly note.

The MARTA case on the other hand was ruled using Title II - which covers public organisations, not private companies. As I understand it, the ruling makes no opinion as to the “public accommodation” of private companies.
The site you mentioned (minihostels) is a private company, and therefor I don't think it can be sued over accessibility regardless.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:42 am
by jayshields
I'm just going back through some lecture notes. The example we were given was a website called target.com, and they suffered $6 million in damages for not complying. This was around February 2009, so you'll probably be able to find something about it.

You know the accessibility guidelines are so strict in Italy (under the Stanca Act) that web pages must also be XHTML Strict.

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:03 am
by Eran
Thanks Jay, I was able to find some reference on that. Personally, I find all of this absurd. Not discriminating against blind people, but changing the interface so that it can be used in non-standard ways should be a added-value not a requirement.
and purchases could not be completed without a mouse because keyboard controls did not work.
Photoshop can't be used with just a keyboard also, is Adobe a candidate for litigation? what about most modern GUIs?

Target's case never made it to court as they reached a settlement. Since it was treated as a class-action lawsuit, their potential for damages was much higher and since they can afford to pay they chose the path of least risk instead of pleading their case out in court. As a result, the case did not set any legal binding precedent (as detailed in this article - http://www.out-law.com/page-9389).

Obviously they were targeted since they are such a huge brand. Smaller companies would not have attracted such attention. It's no surprise that the more high-profile you are, the more strict you have to get about the minute letter of the law. Still, I wonder why the web is such a special case in this respect, as there an enormous range of product types that can't be used by blind people and are not legally liable for it.

(By the way, I'm not defending target decisions - I have no idea what their site looked like before the suit. Just wondering how is it that there are laws governing web accessilibity but not other forms of media / UI)

Re: Opera font sizes - 1px larger?

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:59 pm
by Benjamin
onion2k wrote:You shouldn't be using pixel sizes for fonts anyway. They stop people resizing the font to what they want, which breaks all sorts of accessibility guidelines (and laws in some countries).
I'm well aware of this, however in this application there is no other option. In fact, browsers that won't comply with the correct font sizes will be blocked from even accessing the site.

The point here is that I have instructed a browser to display something with a specific font size and it does not comply.