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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:16 pm
by RobertGonzalez
Feyd wrote:... but I do feel we need to expand beyond just php. That is my major point throughout all of this. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have so wanted to do this for the last year or so. I even registered a domain with the hopes that I would be able to put together an online manual for all the more popular WEB development languages and allow users to compare techniques and syntax among various languages. I have established a forum for it but have not promoted it at all.

My original intent for all of this was to make myself a more well-rounded developer while at the same time helping others who were interested in learning various web development techniques. After all, how could I help some with C#.NET or ColdFusion if I don't know it?

I think that it is a good idea for any developer to learn other languages (much like any person would benefit from knowing other spoken languages) so they can market themselves to a wider client base and develop applications that might make the Internet world a better place.

Of course, I haven't had a lick of time to devote to even toying with getting this site set up, but I would so get into a community that allowed the coming together of developers with expertise in various technologies so I could become a better developer in them.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:47 am
by shiznatix
keep the idea of web programming going and do ASP.NET . It would be real good for many of us looking to be able to get a job doing this stuff if we where all able to switch between the 2 no problem and as i was told earlier, there is no real good ASP forums around. i just think it would be good to stick with web programming and cover the whole field. thats what I want to see.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:50 am
by feyd
all of the languages mentioned (possibly in a separate moderator thread) are all web-related languages.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:19 am
by timvw
Just as there is a different section for bussiness related stuff, i would suggest to add a subsection as CPP to Programming. When they are a success (people like them and use them) they will grow (just as there was enough intrest in regular expressions or gd or test driven design to make a dedicated section).. It has the advantage that changes are simply a result of community processes (instead of management dictating what should happen)...

my €0.02

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:43 am
by Charles256
I wouldn't mind seeing a branch into c/c++. I can't seem to find a really great forum in it, the one I am aware of is...okay? :-D I'm just not too terribly impressed in all honesty.... And the community seems kinda cold, juset what I observed from the outside..Either way...I don't see the point of not spreading out, but, I'm just a minor player in a large war,do whatever. :-D

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:27 am
by mickd
I myself would like to see this forum branching into other major programming languages (web and non-web languages). Reason because, i visit this board so frequantly that if it did expand, it would give me a better chance to learn some other programming languages (C/C++ im actually quite interested in).

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:21 am
by Bill H
I am sympathetic to those who want to add other languages/environments, but I am in agreement with those who want this forum to remain focused on PHP. I actually spend more time programming in C/C++ than in PHP, and I have a great C/C++ forum bookmarked which I visit on a regular basis, and I have a really good HTML/CSS site bookmarked as well. This approach works really well for me.

When you have a vision problem you don't go to a proctologist, you go to an opthamologist. What makes a general practioner send a patient to a specialist is visible in the definitions of the words "general" and "specialist." DevNetwork is the expert on PHP, CodeGuru on C/C++, WebDeveloper on HTML/CSS. The last one has a section for PHP, but I never bother with it because the activity is very low.

That's what expertise is all about. This forum has incredible expertise and nice people, awesomely fast replies and accuracy of information. Part of what makes it so good it its focus. I really believe that will suffer if youi start expanding into other languages/environments.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:40 am
by RobertGonzalez
As I said before, I am totally into the idea of a multi-language web forum. In defense of the those that are not so into it, there are a few forums already set up like that:

http://www.daniweb.com/techtalkforums/
http://www.codingforums.com/

I think it was Bill H that said that the expertise is greater in a dedicated invironment like this one (for PHP) and that is evidenced at the two forums mentioned above. They cover a lot of categories but there is not a lot of help there across all platforms.

That being said, I think that there are enough of us to be able to put together a fairly decent amount of useful knowledge and information for other folks, so I think it would be a benefit to this board and the development community to branch out and offer more "service".

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:22 am
by Gambler
all of the languages mentioned (possibly in a separate moderator thread) are all web-related languages.
But not exclusively. PHP does certain things in a certain way. This "way" forms the userbase focus for this website. If you expand the forum beyound php, the userbase focus will change, and the forum itself will change as well.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:28 am
by Roja
Gambler wrote:This "way" forms the userbase focus for this website. If you expand the forum beyound php, the userbase focus will change, and the forum itself will change as well.
And if you look at some of the other forums that do, you'll notice that the tone, the attitude, and the level of respect given to php on them is completely unacceptable in comparison to these forums.

Not to be biased myself, but the reality is, programmers in the other languages hold little respect for PHP, and as a result, I have very little interest in them coming here. Open a second forum for non-PHP related languages, even using the same user database. But leave phpdn for its original purpose - PHP.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:14 am
by patrikG
I would like to see Python added to the bunch - and possibly Ruby out of interest, but Python has such a neat syntax and strong object orientation that the very little bit of code I have seen and the very little bit I have experimented with it have impressed me quite a lot.

I'm not interested in C or C# - very much the same reasons Roja stated: soon we'd have extremely puritanical design pattern discussions without merit (which happens for PHP on other forums already). Nothing wrong with design patterns, they're fantastic and powerful, but it's not a religion.

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:30 am
by Bill H
Okay, got to add one more thought here, involving the concept of "mindset." as Roja said
programmers in the other languages hold little respect for PHP
There's a lot of truth in that, and (imho) it goes beyond that. I believe that people with certain mindsets naturally migrate to certain types of programming. Part of the reason for the pretty constant courtesy and good humor that I observe in these forums is that we are all of a similar mindset - we all tend to think similarly. When there are "arguments" they are about different ways to do the same thing in PHP.

Do we really need to add people to the forums who would be posting "Oh, this would be so much easier in C++" to this forum? I'll guarantee you that would creep in if you "broaden the mix" to any real extent.

One thing I will guarantee you is that I'll stick around no matter what you do. (Unless someone starts kicking moderators off the forum again, but...)

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:40 am
by Chris Corbyn
Bill H wrote:One thing I will guarantee you is that I'll stick around no matter what you do. (Unless someone starts kicking moderators off the forum again, but...)
I hope nobody is getting the impression that there's some tension here :? This is purely an open discussion on whether or not we should pursue an idea we've been mulling over.

What's being debated here is being done via friendly, and healthy discussion. Moderators, Admins, Guests, and Members.... we're all the same community regardless of what *rank* we have under our names.... this community drives DevNetwork and hence, we really appreciate your views. That's why this thread has been opened to public discussion... it's your forum, nobody's going to do things with it that the community don't want :)

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:28 pm
by Charles256
the reason i wouldn't mind is if we did something like cdevnetwork.com and phpdevnetwork.com , make a family of the devnetwork domain names....just my thoughts :-D

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:17 pm
by timvw
I've got the feeling that if you want to express devnetwork as a family of programming language communities you're better of with language.devnetwork.net then with languagedevnetwork.net domain ;)

I agree that it seems challenging to build new communities around other languages / technologies too. But as long as they aren't a significant part(s) of the devnetwork i think it would be a mistake to make the change from phpdn to dn. Changing phpdn to php.dn seems to be a good way in between. It still remains phpdn, but on the other hand you've opened the door for future languageX.dn too.. Nothing intrusive :)

If we are a bit realistic we'll see that most other languages already have (pretty good) networks. So the first step would be to become part of these networks..

As Roja already said: it's pretty clear that we need to revise the list with networked sites. And while we're at it, we better note somewhere the used criteria to prevent this list doesn't get out to date as it's today. Once we have these criteria we can use them to steer the building of new *.dn's and allow to become as good as php.dn

I've got the feeling there is a large opening for information about php extensions (pecl). How to code them, build them, distribute them. Currently the only resource seems to be a mailinglist at php.net.