New Programming forums

We know you have an opinion on how things should be run around here. These are suggestions for the forums, and the website.This forum is not a place to ask for suggestions to your own coding (or otherwise) problems.

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Bill H
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Post by Bill H »

I hope nobody is getting the impression that there's some tension here
No, no, no. That was a joke. In poor taste, and I apologize for it. This whole discussion has been very pleasant and friendly.
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feyd
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Post by feyd »

As what has been said before, we will not tolerate people having a condescending attitude, especially those who maintain a crappy one like an unnamed person did. Swift punishment will happen to people who do. If anyone feels someone is hitting that button, tell a moderator. We will look into it.

Although I generally like the idea of separate subdomains, I would like to keep some forums (the general ones, namely) shared between them. There are a few solutions I can think of. One being installing an RSS feed generator in one, with readers in the others. The thing I don't like is then having multiple installs...
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Ambush Commander
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Post by Ambush Commander »

Wait... we have RSS feeds??? O.o
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feyd
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Post by feyd »

not at the moment, but a syndication mod is in the queue of possible additions.
timvw
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Post by timvw »

The subdomains could also be a language specific "welcome" page... With highlights of discussions on that language.. And all the rest are simply links to forums.devnetwork.net... To start i would simply add languageX sections under programming. When they grow, it's still possible to reorder sections..
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Maugrim_The_Reaper
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Post by Maugrim_The_Reaper »

First up thanks for making the discussion public!

First up is the proposal to expand into other languages. I see no reason NOT to do so, but the problem is in the HOW and WHAT TYPES. Putting another language on a footing with PHP can quite easily stab you in the back - general forums in my view lack a certain community feel and are easily led based on who holds the knowledge - not the users. Sitepoint is a classic example - I dislike it for many reasons but the two main ones are the pedantic posts and the ads which play havoc when you're using dial up.

The one thing I don't understand however is the approach... Has anyone formalised any planning?

You could expand in two directions - within PHP, or outside it. Now both could work, the question is which is more effective (mixing is not criminal either ;)) and which can leverage off the strengths of what already exists?

If you take one perspective expanding beyond PHP into other languages may have several effects.

First, you'd be competing with a pre-existing solution.
Second, you'd be ignoring the forum focus - maybe.
Third, it could wind up diluting the PHP signal.

Extra languages may pull regular users between both camps, dividing effort, and lowering the current level of activity and help. So it can come down to a question of the user base you could attract - the more users, the more participants helping.

It could however work - but then the question becomes one of marketing. I know the M word is evil and all, but without gaining new users at a reasonable pace the exercise could be pointless.

So which languages? Although I know C/C++ would be popular to do (many are familiar with it), I can't see a new forum errupting. There are C/C++ forums already established that most people use regularly. Same goes for Perl, plus Perl is not growing these days. The same could be said of Java, etc. In my view some (or all) are more suitable for single forum sections. Not a whole new forum.

One could suggest picking something that's expanding, that has a lot of potential, and a lot of confused users just entering the learning phase, e.g Ruby, Python, etc. I could see DN making an impact there a lot more effectively than in languages where the user base is established and growth is slight or even in decline. Entrenched user bases are almost impossible to crack.

The other side from expanding the languages is to expand the PHP network. PHP is pretty lax on that front. One of the symptoms is the PHP Google Bug - if you want a PHP related resource, you search Google. Why? Because there is no other obvious list of resources... Now I know they exist - some of them. But in my experience many exist in isolation, or are simply ignoring user needs in favour of their own needs, some are downright horrible. Others are very high quality - but not something a new user would easily find. The majority operate via word of mouth alone almost... I still discover PHP gems by following the blog community that are never mentioned anywhere else - not even a small news bite.

As to which path would reap the most benefit, I'd have to say the network. I'm not entirely certain even these forums are as successful as they could be with the right conditions (and not all of those are reliant on a network, e.g. the Google search for "php forum" returns Devnetwork without a decent description of the forum - a useability flaw in my view. Minor but this is seen by how many PHP users a day?).

Of course all those Network components need to exist to be effective - so maybe that can be discussed separately.

Back on the proposal for expanding the language set...

I think it could make sense, but not in all cases suggested. IMO I think Perl and C/C++ would be a mistake. Both have an entrenched user base, so both have high barriers of entry for yet another forum. Picking something less fixed, with a growing user base might prove a better choice. Ruby for example, although with its own forums, is growing fast. A simple "ruby forum" search indicates lots of room for another Ruby forum. Sitepoint is currently in there. The rest listed are largely seeing minute activity, or are lists of other resources. None come close to what Devnetwork resembles for PHP.

It could also be suggested to stay within sight of the current user base's experience. PHP and Ruby though competing languages in some aspects, could be complementary for a forum network. Plus as Ruby grows, so will the user base, the accumulation of knowledge, etc. I see no reason why DN couldn't fill that opening...

Of course Ruby here is an example - the same could be true of Python, or other languages - the point is to choose with care, and keep the focus narrow. Dumping a dozen new languages into new forums probably isn't the plan anyway...;)

To end this ramble everyone gives up on this post!

I would prefer to see the Network developed, than an arbitrary set of new forums suddenly erupt and bury PHP in the noise of many. Trying to do too much would probably have the same effects as it sometimes may in a software application - it stops doing one thing really well, and only does it okay - sometimes it does more harm than good. I wouldn't categorically reject a language expansion - but it should make sense, and have some connection to the PHP user base who are generally developing web applications. A jump from PHP to C/C++ from that view makes little sense. Then again as someone pointed out - there is room in PHP for a forum on PECL.
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evilmonkey
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Post by evilmonkey »

Hey guys,

I think expansion is a great idea, if it's to be done right. I think it has been suggested to do language.devnetwork.net, and I think that's how it should be. Don't bunch it all into the same forum. As for what languages, I would love to see people helping each other with Windows development, mostly .NET. C/C++ is good as well. Also, web languages such as PERL, Python, and ASP. I say do it, but keep it all seperate.
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Chris Corbyn
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Post by Chris Corbyn »

I'm liking the idea of subdomains... it kinda puts some meaning into "network" but at the same time it's clean, organised and it also akes out the worry that some of you have about the way the community would change.

On the other hand it makes maintenance and moderating a HUGE amount more effort. We'd have to look into the admin side of this before we could say if it's feasible.
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

Considering that DevNet is primarily a forum, why can't we expand the forums to include a pilot category called "Other Languages". Make a post rule that all posts must begin with the language you are posting about (ie, "ColdFusion - How do I ...", "C# - What is a...", "Python - Script keeps crashing..."). Talk this one category up around the DevNet community a little bit to see if there are any takers. If not, then you know we shouldn't expand. If there is interest shown, then we can look at expanding the network along whatever lines are seen as best.

I would think at this stage of the game it would be too early to look at building a vast network if there will be no interest in the network.
Roja
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Post by Roja »

Everah wrote:Considering that DevNet is primarily a forum, why can't we expand the forums to include a pilot category called "Other Languages".
Because then you end up with proponents of the other languages (Python, Ruby, Java) in the same forum. The result many are predicting (myself included) based on other mixed-focus forums, is that of OOP snobbery, elitism, and a decline in respect for PHP - which is the core audience here.

Its somewhat like politics - you want to keep your base solid, and not <span style='color:blue' title='I'm naughty, are you naughty?'>smurf</span> them off. However, you also want to expand and pick up swing voters. Its a balancing act.

The position I agree with is that these forums - the forums.devnetwork.net, should continue with the focus and scope they began with: PHP. If there is a desire to expand out, give those languages a seperate subdomain. If it thrives, great. If it doesn't, we know we shouldn't have (or should try harder). In either case, the common audience on *these* forums isn't dramatically changed, and the focus stays the same, making the elitism stick out, instead of fitting right in.

Personally, I come to these forums specifically because the moderation is fair, the userbase is non-elitist, the topic is focused, and the forum software is extremely comfortable. Its a winning formula. Lets not ruin it.

+1 for Subdomains.
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RobertGonzalez
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Post by RobertGonzalez »

I agree with you Roja about the snobbery and elitism that runs rampant on other mixed language boards. But one thing I have noticed about this board from day one is the extremely helpful and understanding nature of the members, mods and admins of this community. Given the way in which people interact here I would think (giving people the benefit of the doubt, of course) that the nature of this very large community would overwhelm the idiots that might otherwise screw it up to the point that those very idiots would no longer be able to stand being in the same cyber-company as helpful, understanding people like us.

Snobbish fools like being around other snobbish fools to show them how snobbish they can be. This board would irritate them right out of being here, leaving only the pleasant DevNet community to maintain peace and order throughout the galaxy.

Either way, I am a DevNet member for life. Regardless of what we do with the other languages, or how we do it, I will continue to live off of this community and I will continue to support it to the best of my abilities.
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neophyte
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Post by neophyte »

I'm opposed to mixing languages on the same board. I think we'd end up slaming this language or that language for this that or other instead of doing what we are all here to do: learn and help others learn PHP. If anyone needs an example just do a survey of recent topics where the pros and cons of a language were discussed. I think having multiple subdomains with multiple boards (one for each language) tied together through a mainpage would be a great new direction for the devnetwork as long as moderation does not thin out to the point of breakage.
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Chris Corbyn
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Post by Chris Corbyn »

neophyte wrote:I think having multiple subdomains with multiple boards (one for each language) tied together through a mainpage would be a great new direction for the devnetwork as long as moderation does not thin out to the point of breakage.
We would be taking on enough more moderators to handle any extra forums we add so that won't happen don't worry. We'd also assess the situation again shortly after to ensure we have enough moderators on board to handle this ;)
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