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New Programming forums

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:27 am
by Chris Corbyn
This thread has been moved from a hidden forum for site admins/moderators. We'd like your views :)

So we seem pretty set on the idea of opening up to languages outside of the php Bubble. It's time to discuss exactly what languages we'll be including support for, the sub-categories in these languages (in order to justify adding these, rather than using the "Miscellaneous" forum I think we need enough idea on categories too), and when we expect to have these launched by.

We also need to think about how we will find moderators with expertise in these areas to help us out a little. Discuss here :)

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:09 pm
by pickle
Keeping in mind that this is a php forum, I'm not sure we want to branch off into too many languages. I realize I'm probably in the minority with this opinion though. If we do go ahead, I think we should probably expand to Javascript, Perl, and maybe ASP and Coldfusion.

Weren't we going to use D2 to expand to other languages?

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:15 pm
by feyd
As for languages.. I know C/C++ quite well, C# not so much but have dabbled (a while ago).

As for us being a php forum, we are really only in a technical sense from what I've seen. Mostly tradition has kept us here; as far as I know, we've never attempted to branch out much. Now, we are pretty much the premier php forum, and I don't want to alienate existing users, but I do also think it is time to grow again. This is why I want to have a history page, so people have the chance to understand where the board grew out of and stuff.

Personally, I have no issue keeping php as the most prominent language (even keeping it outside of the programming block for a while until people become used to it.) I was originally just thinking from a logical point of view alphabetic order makes the most sense. Maybe we should research a mod that allows users to order the forums? (Sounds size intensive, not that permissions aren't :roll:)

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:24 pm
by m3mn0n
Well to reiterate my sentiments, I dislike the idea of expanding to the point where other languages are on equal footing with PHP here.

That completely kills the PHPDN as we know it and as we have always known it.

I don't mind them having forums here, but to revamp our name, support other languages as much as we support PHP and completly shift focus like that is just too drastic, and as I said it destroys any possibility of revamping the PHPDN site network.

That is actually something that I was about to suggest that we do. Keep PHP our priority and revive the network that promotes its usage and interacting with other users.

I am willing to support something like that. But something like what was suggested won't have my support.

Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:35 pm
by feyd
There's no reason we couldn't resurrect the network. Afterall, the original members are still around, just not active here. I think we can, like our current logo, create a molecule like network. The center of which is here, where all the languages interact and meet. Then there's the PHPDN, ASPDN, CPPDN, etc that spring off of it. PHPDN would continue to be the largest for some time, and in fact would be the only one until we get more people involved from the other languages. We aren't changing the moniker at all, at worse, we're changing the logo and the layout of the categories a bit. The transition period will take a while, and I'm fine with slowly rolling out new languages as we get moderators that can and will support it, along with other sites to join the network.

Now, if the domain was phpdn, we'd be screwed. But since it already is DevNetwork, we're positioned to take on other languages (doesn't even have to be in the web world!) ...

Now, one thing that can shut all this down is if the users all bang their little drums and cry. If they want to stay exactly as it is, that's fine. But I'm going to leave the major choice up to them.. we'll simply bring the idea and fleshed out plan to them to see what they think. Kinda like a shareholders meeting. The board, us, wants to, overall, make some changes. We spend some time fleshing out the idea and getting it documented and presentable. We then give it to our shareholders to vote on. Fair enough?

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:18 am
by m3mn0n
We may be technically in position to take on other languages because of the domain name, but why do it at that capacity? What's wrong with keeping our focus primarily on PHP?

(and for a slightly off-topic point, I just noticed that it says "The Developer's Network" up there, didn't it once say "The PHP Developer's Network"?)

And if we were to shift away from PHP, I have fears it'll backfire on us. We have to remember, the main reason these forums are such a success is because of the original site network that was here. It didn't start off like this, there was great sites that forwarded people to these forums and from there it grew, and grew, and grew to what we have today.

So with that in mind, I feel for it to be viable to expand and hope for an outcome on the same or a similar level of success, there'd need to be the same sort of network of sites for those other languages. Only then I predict it would be worthwhile to hold languages such as Ruby and Perl in the same regard as PHP here.

Without something like that, there is no hope for us to have such a venture become a successful one because people would be more inclined to visit the forums of sites who have language-related content , help articles, tutorials, and (most likely) an already established forum community.

To entertain the idea further, from what I understand it would be basically a developer's network of development networks. With devnetwork.net being the home for the PHPDN, ASPDN, CPPDN and etc. With that in mind, I ask this, would it be so much a developer network, as it would be a generic message board? The DN part of those simply wouldn't exist. Unless of course, part of this is to establish a site network for the other languages.

If that's the case, I also ask this, why not discuss plans for reviving the PHP developers 'network of sites?

If that isn't the case, why not simply have forums for those languages in a new category if we have enough interest among our userbase?

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:03 am
by feyd
Paranoia, paranoia everybody's comin' to get me..

The point of growing slowly, was to create the nucleonic structure of sites currently having interest in the various languages we'd like to add. The list I gave was purely an idea of what I saw in a possible future. The timeline I've guessed to get there may easily be quite some time, however there are certain languages that are becoming quite popular now (Ruby and Python come to mind) .. Perl, while a well established language, isn't so popular anymore.

I realize that in all likelihood (and I've known this from the beginning), it will take those other nodes of languages pointing here for their forums or whatever. At the very least, them linking to us in some fashion.

If we don't resurrect some of the older phpdn projects, then yes, this site will literally only be a message board. That is all this site is known for now anyways, as far as I've seen. Especially with the www address redirecting to the forums, it's hard for someone to find out what else this site offers. news.devnetwork.net, use.devnetwork.net among others are pretty much long forgotten memories.

I have no problem in revamping any of the existing projects and sites, but I do feel we need to expand beyond just php. That is my major point throughout all of this. Nothing more, nothing less.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:19 am
by m3mn0n
Well, I guess that's my major issue with all of this; I want the PHP Developer's Network to stay the PHP Developer's Network.

There is such a legacy here and though it has fallen off track in recent times, I'd much rather see us focus our efforts on getting it back on track rather than accepting our current state and planning to revamp the site in such a way that the focal point shifts away from its roots and strengths which are in PHP.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:34 am
by Chris Corbyn
Perhaps this should be discussed in public so we can see what our members think? I see valid points on both sides here. Personally I'm not afraid of change... change can be healthy. If the majority of members don't like the idea then I think that's that.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:13 am
by m3mn0n
I don't mind that at all.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:49 am
by Weirdan
What about moving this entire thread into the public area?

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:50 am
by Chris Corbyn
Weirdan wrote:What about moving this entire thread into the public area?
My thoughts exactly. Done.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:11 pm
by Ree
I'd really love to see other languages added - especially .NET development related.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:09 pm
by Roja
Sami wrote:Well, I guess that's my major issue with all of this; I want the PHP Developer's Network to stay the PHP Developer's Network.
Sami, you captured my thoughts exactly.

First, thank you to the mod team for opening the discussion to the public. As we proved a few months back, the community is what drives these forums, and nothing else. Making the community part of the discussion, and the development is key to staying successful, so thanks for continuing to include us. Not every mod team would.

With that said, yes, there are other programming languages out there. Perl, Ruby, Python, C, and more. But lets be honest.. Perl has the perl monks, and several other major community sites. Ruby has rubyonrails, RubyCentral, and several others. As does Python, as does C.. the list goes on.

Most other languages not only have a solid central site, they have numerous solid alternatives. Sadly, if you remove phpdn, thats not the case for PHP. Sitepoint is elitist in the extreme, has a horrible layout, and ads anywhere they can shove them.

I really feel strongly that branching out from php (and the client side languages like AJAX and JS that it can produce) is losing the focus that makes the forums worth visiting. Coming to these forums means hearing php-knowledgable solutions to php-problems. The absolute last thing I want to see is six months from now, a post saying "Well, I don't know how you n00bs do it in PHP, but in C..."

And mark my words, you WOULD have that happen if you start mixing the language focus. Different languages have different passions and strengths, and mixing them is NOT a good thing. Read through the 'fun' threads here on coldfusion, C, and so on. The majority of the threads end up in a nasty mudslinging contest. Thats not what I want, and I can't imagine thats what other members want. (If it is, I'd be headed elsewhere).

Thats the first point (PHP or other languages).

The second issue, as to revamping the network.. It desperately needs to be done. Horribly, horribly badly. Many of the original sites in the network aren't updated, aren't relevant, and in some cases are downright bad choices. I'm more than happy to get specific, but I'm trying to keep it general and polite. The list of network sites needs to be not a historical record of who happened to know who back when. It needs to be a collection of sites that work *together*, not against each other, and with admins that visit the forums often.

When I was chosen to be a mod, that was my requirement - that we would undertake revamping the network list. My reasons for leaving are diverse, but the heated discussion around specific sites in the network was definitely part of my decision. Stubbornly clinging to the past instead of making a solid set of resources that help people isn't progress - its just the opposite.

Each resource should be independently considered. Open a seperate thread, and ask users where they go for that. Where do users today go to get information about php security? I guarantee its not the site in our network today! What about snippet sharing sites (Evilwalrus)? That site is offline!

Once we get a feel for where users go, we can either work with that admin to become part of the network, or, we can see if some enterprising soul wants to make a bigger, better version. Me, I'm working on making a new, and better EW-type site. Several members wanted it, and I have the resources to make it happen. But I am truly worried about whether it can get into the network once its launched. If a site can be *offline* for over a year, and not get revamped, what are the criteria?

The process needs improvement, is what I'm getting at. Define the process, and update it. Everyone could use better resources, and by involving the community, not only will we have the best resources, but we may even encourage new resources to be developed.

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:03 pm
by Buddha443556
Well as long as phpdn stays intact I have no problem with the Network expanding. I think anything that encourages the sharing of knowledge and experience among the members of the community can only by good for the community. I think a growing community is a thriving community. Sure there are plenty of sites for Perl, Ruby or whatever language but why should that stop us? If the boy's from Google had that attitude we would all still be using Yahoo.

PHP is not my first language and not even my last language and if something better comes along to replace it - so be it. I love this comminity for it's openness and spirit of sharing but that comes from the people here not the language being discussed IMHO.