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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:11 am
by Benjamin
Let me clarify that this is not directed at all moderators and that I understand that 80% or so of the moderators are great. A few are on power trips though.

I'm not trying to insult anyone any more than fellow members get insulted when they ask a legitimate question or make a legitimate post and then get criticized for it.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:25 am
by pickle
I have no doubt you feel some moderated posts are legitimate & I'm not going to make a comment on whether I believe they are legitimate or not. However, we all need to realize that legitimacy is subjective - not objective. I honestly think you would be surprised at the number of posts us moderators choose NOT to change despite the fact many of us believe we should.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:30 am
by Benjamin
pickle wrote:I have no doubt you feel some moderated posts are legitimate & I'm not going to make a comment on whether I believe they are legitimate or not. However, we all need to realize that legitimacy is subjective - not objective. I honestly think you would be surprised at the number of posts us moderators choose NOT to change despite the fact many of us believe we should.
I agree, I have seen that as well. Some have been a little bit over the line and I was surprised that they were not changed/edited. Maybe the rules need to be clarified? I'm not sure. I know that legitimate posts that I have made have been removed for various reasons that weren't justified, and I've seen it happen to other people. The only reason I'm going on about it is because it seems to be getting worse.

I know what the board is like, and I accept that, but when I see new members getting insulted because they didn't ask a question correctly, or accused of doing something illegal, immoral, copyright infringment, etc., that is when I need to step up and say, hey this isn't right.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:47 am
by AKA Panama Jack
d11wtq wrote:I ask the community now. Do you agree with ~astions? If you do I'd rather see you speak out now and we can address any issues.
I agree with him as well. Especially about the post that was removed and restored.

Also, Feyd IS more than a little fanatical about rules. I have been on the PM receiving end of his nasty grams a couple of times. Put it this way, they can make someone who wants to contribute decide to LEAVE because of the fanatical way he moderates and the content of his PMs.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:12 am
by Jenk
Although I mentioned I will stay out of it, I'm posting as my contribution as a member of the forums in response to d11wtq's question.

I can't say either yes, nor no. It's an entirely subjective decision to remove/moderate a post/thread thus I feel I can't post a yes or no.

I also have no 'yes/no' on the topic of some admins getting a bit heated, I've admin'd other forums in the past and I know just how frustrating it is to see the same dross day in day out being repeatedly posted over and over. Although moderators and admins do indirectly represent the community, it's not always easy to keep cool when you've seen someone break the same rule for the 1000th time.

I'm not criticising anyone with the above comments, merely hypothetical examples.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:19 am
by Benjamin
Jenk, I agree with you as well. But keep in mind, any business, for profit or not, will always have new users. These new users are going to be unfamilar with the rules. It's a fact of life I'm afraid. There are always going to be members/customers calling/emailing/writing stupid questions or breaking rules. Sometimes it can get frustrating, that is true. But you know what your manager would say if you were rude to them. We need to embrace new members and teach them our culture, not scare them away with threats and rules. Then the community can grow and prosper with dedicated members.

You all know, there are things we all don't know, but others do. Teach me and I'll teach you.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:45 am
by Luke
While I agree sometimes the mods can be a little condescending, I honestly can say that one of the main reasons I come here instead of another forum is that the rules are enforced completely and without discrimination. I have no complaint as far as how this site is moderated. I'm not being a kiss-ass, I truely think this place is ran very well. (sorry to disagree, cuz I like ya astions :( )

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:50 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Me, I'll just ramble a bit. ;)

Technically, the Flickr example of a parsed string did not break any of the rules. It had the *potential* to lead to a copyright violation, but the posting of a string regex was not itself a violation. It's not a simple distinction to make - maybe it wasn't the right call but the intention was honest.

a94060's example was a bit on the harsh side. He's a self-proclaimed 14 year-old. Honestly, can't we apply a little friendly peer pressure before throwing PM's at people. It was a minor two letter offence at the start of an otherwise clear and technically correct post. Rewarding it with a warning was a wee bit too far (oh, shoot me now...).

The common thread as I see it is the term "PM". I get the feeling a few people are uncomfortable with having issues shuffled into no-public land where no one else sees what's going on. There's a time to PM, and a time to let folk express themselves publicly without feeling like its being actively discouraged by Mods. A little more public criticism wouldn't go amiss either - it'd be more effective than a terse PM IMHO and be less likely to make people feel like they have been targeted.

I think there's no harm in organising a separate discussion on the rules - it's not that they're bad, but they need clarification on some points. Personally I love the rules - I just get the feeling they don't cover all points currently being moderated upon which are being interpreted as opinions as a result.

Just my 102c...

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:52 pm
by patrikG
Maybe a bit clarification since it was my exchange of PMs with Astion that “broke the camel’s back”.
Astions wrote:It's funny how when anyone speaks out about an issue like this, they are encouraged to talk about it privately.
If you have problems with a forum-member and/or moderator the best way is to directly address the issue via PM.
If you believe a rule in the forum rules is unfair or inaccurate post here.
If you believe your grievances really, really, really affect the foundation on which this forum is based then voice them in a new thread in General Discussion (as you have done).

Why PM first? Because this is a PHP-forum which people visit to learn about PHP - meta-discussion are only interesting to those involved.

With regards to the thread I moderated due to possible copyright infringement: I erred in favour of the forum-member who asked that question. Why? Because what he was asking for was, from a purely scripting point-of-view, trivial and I needed to show off as a mod? No, sorry to disappoint: I did so, because the use of that script can lead to copyright infringement – which is against the forum rules as well as illegal (in most countries).
In my first post on that thread, after I temporarily removed the script, I asked him to clarify his intentions: i.e. “Do you want to rip copyrighted images of flicker?”. After an explanation by the forum member, I restored the script. He could, and still can, use this script to grab copyrighted images of flickr, hence my assertion that I was too lenient.

Regarding new users and forum rules: the rules apply to everyone on this forum, new member, old member, moderator, site-admin. Every single one. “Ignorance does not protect you from punishment.” We can’t, and won’t give leeway to new members. After what postcount can you reasonably expect them to have read the rules? You post here, you abide by the rules.

As moderators, we are the gatekeepers of the information on this board. We try to keep it as spam-free, as to-the-point and as polite as possible. In the end someone has to make a decision and that is, regarding smaller moderating tasks, an individual moderator or, in bigger cases, the entire team of moderators.

Personally, I think it’s good that grievances are discussed in the open and that members are encouraged to participate in this discussion. I would suggest that anyone who has suggestions for the forum rules, i.e. how to make them better, does so on the suggestion thread

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:34 pm
by hawleyjr
Astions wrote:It's funny how when anyone speaks out about an issue like this, they are encouraged to talk about it privately.
patrikG wrote: Why PM first? Because this is a PHP-forum which people visit to learn about PHP - meta-discussion are only interesting to those involved.
I want to note that if you feel your PM's should be made public. Add them to your blog. Anytime a user is sent a PM by a moderator, the moderator puts a copy of the PM in the moderator forum. Trust me, every PM sent is reviewed by the mod team and if someone doesn't like the tone of the PM then it is discussed how the PM be improved.

I also want to point out the hours of effort the mod team clocks in here. I'm one of the more less active mods and I'm still putting in 2 hours a day trying to move and fix things...

Look through other forums and read some of the trash there...The team here does a pretty good job cleaning up....

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:17 pm
by AKA Panama Jack
hawleyjr wrote:Anytime a user is sent a PM by a moderator, the moderator puts a copy of the PM in the moderator forum.
Unless you have modded the forums to do this automatically you are relying on good faith that the moderator is sending an EXACT copy to the moderator forums. So there can be PMs from moderators that never show up in your moderator forum. Just something to think about.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:36 pm
by a94060
Maugrim_The_Reaper wrote:Me, I'll just ramble a bit. ;)

Technically, the Flickr example of a parsed string did not break any of the rules. It had the *potential* to lead to a copyright violation, but the posting of a string regex was not itself a violation. It's not a simple distinction to make - maybe it wasn't the right call but the intention was honest.

a94060's example was a bit on the harsh side. He's a self-proclaimed 14 year-old. Honestly, can't we apply a little friendly peer pressure before throwing PM's at people. It was a minor two letter offence at the start of an otherwise clear and technically correct post. Rewarding it with a warning was a wee bit too far (oh, shoot me now...).

The common thread as I see it is the term "PM". I get the feeling a few people are uncomfortable with having issues shuffled into no-public land where no one else sees what's going on. There's a time to PM, and a time to let folk express themselves publicly without feeling like its being actively discouraged by Mods. A little more public criticism wouldn't go amiss either - it'd be more effective than a terse PM IMHO and be less likely to make people feel like they have been targeted.

I think there's no harm in organising a separate discussion on the rules - it's not that they're bad, but they need clarification on some points. Personally I love the rules - I just get the feeling they don't cover all points currently being moderated upon which are being interpreted as opinions as a result.

Just my 102c...
thanks man:)


patrickG wrote: With regards to the thread I moderated due to possible copyright infringement: I erred in favour of the forum-member who asked that question. Why? Because what he was asking for was, from a purely scripting point-of-view, trivial and I needed to show off as a mod? No, sorry to disappoint: I did so, because the use of that script can lead to copyright infringement – which is against the forum rules as well as illegal (in most countries).
In my first post on that thread, after I temporarily removed the script, I asked him to clarify his intentions: i.e. “Do you want to rip copyrighted images of flicker?”. After an explanation by the forum member, I restored the script. He could, and still can, use this script to grab copyrighted images of flickr, hence my assertion that I was too lenient.
If he were doing copyrighted stuff? why would it matter to us,if we have knowelege of something,we shouldnt be punished for telling someone. For example,if i have knowelege of how to hack M$'s servers and say feyd comes along(VERY big exagguration ,by the way) and asked me how to hack them,and i told him,he would probably get in trouble for the hacking,but i really wouldnt. im not really sure,but this would seem most logical to me.

All the guy asked was how would he preg_match to the url. We dont know if he wanted to rip the photo from there,get daily feeds or what he wanted to do. If he were gonig to do something illegal,do you think HE WOULD REALLY TELL US? please be real now people.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:40 pm
by hawleyjr
AKA Panama Jack wrote:
hawleyjr wrote:Anytime a user is sent a PM by a moderator, the moderator puts a copy of the PM in the moderator forum.
Unless you have modded the forums to do this automatically you are relying on good faith that the moderator is sending an EXACT copy to the moderator forums. So there can be PMs from moderators that never show up in your moderator forum. Just something to think about.
That is a conspiracy theory that goes way beyond this thread…There is no reason why a moderator would not post the exact copy. We are a very democratic team, everything is voted upon prior to anything being posted. Also, the majority of us are in contact via MSN and chat daily. We talk about what each other are doing all the time.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:45 pm
by hawleyjr
a94060 wrote:If he were doing copyrighted stuff? why would it matter to us,if we have knowelege of something,we shouldnt be punished for telling someone. For example,if i have knowelege of how to hack M$'s servers and say feyd comes along(VERY big exagguration ,by the way) and asked me how to hack them,and i told him,he would probably get in trouble for the hacking,but i really wouldnt. im not really sure,but this would seem most logical to me.

All the guy asked was how would he preg_match to the url. We dont know if he wanted to rip the photo from there,get daily feeds or what he wanted to do. If he were gonig to do something illegal,do you think HE WOULD REALLY TELL US? please be real now people.
Actually that is actually wrong. If someone were to post something illegal or how to do something illegal on this board and something were to happen. This forum could be held liable.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:46 pm
by Todd_Z
[quote=feyd]
My PM link is not your hotline for answers. If you want personal, private attention, pay me. $250 per hour for the first two hours, $200 for each hour after. Two hour minimum.
[/quote]

Is that offensive to anyone else? I think its rather inappropriate to parade around your payment structure in your signature line. We get it feyd, you know your stuff.