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Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:13 am
by matthijs
Agreed, Jacob uses strong wording.

In a discussion like this, the problem is of course that we're talking generalizations while in reality there are many contextual factors to consider.
1. Who are your users. I bet that depending on which group of users you do research on the results can be totally opposite.
2. What is the context. Do you open a small window with help info, a download for a PDF file, a link to another site? Do you make clear upfront links open in a new window?
etc

For me, independent of what users expect (argument 1, depends on your target group), I find the arguments:
- opening/manipulating windows is an OS task (only) the user should do
- opening links in new windows gives accessibility problems (screenreaders)
enough reason not to open links in new windows

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:18 am
by Benjamin
matthijs wrote:- opening links in new windows gives accessibility problems (screenreaders)
Ok I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just a very direct and concise person. People take me the wrong way a lot. My questions below are serious.

That one went over my head. What problems does opening a new window cause with screenreaders? (cause I dunno) Beyond that, is this a deficiency of the screen reading software itself, or is it inconsiderate of the web site owner to open a new window because it's not practical to design screenreaders that can handle this situation?

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:31 am
by Inkyskin
I think in this case it comes down to one thing - where is it being used. In the last version of phpBB, if you clicked a link in a forum post it would open in a new window. To me that is pefectly acceptable (And I prefer this anyway) as if you are reading a forum thread where a link is referenced, you very rarely are going to leave the thread after looking at the link - it's a reference in most cases.

On a normal site etc, I agree, new windows for links is to be discouraged. But in a forum, I think that it's almost expected to open in a new window these days, and in my personal opinion, a required feature.

If people don't think like that, I think it would be a good idea for the developers of phpBB and other forum software, to add an option in the user control panels to have links open in new or same windows...

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:47 am
by Kieran Huggins
maybe there should be an iconic hint, standard among browsers?

I know... fat chance :-)

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:05 am
by matthijs
astions wrote:That one went over my head. What problems does opening a new window cause with screenreaders? (cause I dunno) Beyond that, is this a deficiency of the screen reading software itself, or is it inconsiderate of the web site owner to open a new window because it's not practical to design screenreaders that can handle this situation?
Well, I cannot be sure about all screenreaders, but I found this from http://www.webaim.org/techniques/hypert ... _links.php
Accessibility experts also debate the merits of links that open in new windows, pop-up windows, or other frames. Some people would like to ban them entirely. Others concede that they can be appropriate at times, but nearly all of them agree that users ought to be alerted when the link does not open in the current window or frame. The accessibility issue is that some users can get confused with the new windows. Newer screen readers alert the user when a link opens a new window, though only after the user clicks on the link. Older screen readers do not alert the user at all. Sighted users can see the new window open, but users with cognitive disabilities may have difficulty interpreting what just happened. Then when the try to click on the Back button in the browser, nothing happens, because there is no previous link to go back to in a new window. Links to other frames present similar problems.
Also, my guess is that with the growing userbase using mobile devices (phones, pda's) to access web sites, it's probably difficult to predict what happens when a user follows a link opened in a new window, and therefore it might be safer to leave the control to the users.

Some other articles I found:
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/beware ... new-window
http://www.webnauts.net/new-window.html
and a good discussion
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/2 ... w_windows/

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:18 am
by Bill H
Not sure how often it is still done. It is certainly one of the most stupid and offensive things to do as a website owner.
It is still done quite a lot. I can tell you that from experience.

Part of my thought is the "worst case scenario."

The link opens a new window. The user is unaware of that and tries to use the back button. That button is grayed out and the user immediately knows to close the window instead and his site of origin is right there.

The link goes to the new site in the same window but the user thinks it opened a new one so he closes the browser and is at his furshliginer desktop. He has to restart the browser and re-navigate to the site of origin, which he may not recall.

Which was more friendly to the user?

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:31 am
by Benjamin
You said..
matthijs wrote:Well, I cannot be sure about all screenreaders...
But before that you said..
matthijs wrote:opening links in new windows gives accessibility problems (screenreaders)

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:08 am
by matthijs
@astions: English is not my native language, so please excuse me if I wasn't clear. There's nothing contra dictionary in the two quotes, I think. There are problems in screenreaders. But not in all of them.

@Bill H: sorry to hear that you often encounter such sites.
As to the use case you describe: indeed, closing a window unintentionally and ending up with everything closed is unfortunate.

It's obvious there can be usability problems in both situations. The only question then is which situation has more problems. I haven't done usability research myself, so I'm basing my standpoint on the work of others, what I read on websites (for example Roger Johanssens' 456bereastreet) and common sense. Jacob Nielsen, even though he often takes a radical standpoint, has done a lot of usability research, so there should be some value in his points.

I'll not repeat all the arguments here, there are a few in the links I gave. What do you think about those points? For example, listed on the sitepoint article http://www.sitepoint.com/article/beware ... new-window
sitepoint wrote:Here are the top 5 reasons why you should beware of opening links in a new window:

Unless you warn them, Web users are likely to expect the new page to load in the current window. Unexpected surprises can be fun, but not when you're browsing the Web.

The act of opening a new browser window resets the back button in that window. The back button is the second most used navigation function (after hyperlinks, source: useit.com), so resetting it is a big no-no.

To open a new browser window can disorient very novice Web users and the visually impaired. They might not realise that a new window has opened and might struggle to switch between windows.

Opening a new browser window disrespects the desires of your users. If they want a new window, they'll ask for one. Don't force a new window upon users unless there's a very good reason to do so.

New browser windows can make an already cluttered taskbar even more difficult to use. We've all spent ages hunting through the taskbar in search of the window we want. Don't make this process even harder by increasing the number of windows the user has open.

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:53 am
by JayBird
So, what is the concensus on this?

Open in new window, or stay as-is?

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:03 am
by Chris Corbyn
Stay as is from me. Do we need a poll?

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:09 am
by Kieran Huggins
stay as is FTW

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:38 am
by Inkyskin
I'm happy to stay as is (I just need to remember to open in a new tab from now on!)

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:46 am
by RobertGonzalez
No vote. Stay as is. We are all sharp enough to know how to open a new window if we need to.

Re: Links in same window?

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:15 pm
by Chris Corbyn
Everah wrote:No vote. Stay as is. We are all sharp enough to know how to open a new window if we need to.
I'm not sharp, i'm just a big softie...