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Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:06 am
by VladSun
Hockey wrote:... Perl will die a slow painful death cause of all the legacy scripts probably floating aorund for *nix ...

Nooo way
http://use.perl.org/articles/07/12/17/2046212.shtml
http://www.perlfoundation.org/tpf_recei ... evelopment
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:27 am
by Eran
Python is like the object oriented replacement for Perl...I see it no where except in Trac
What's up with that, right? Who's up to port trac to PHP?

Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:10 am
by RobertGonzalez
In Silicon Valley, where all the geeks live, work and play (

) the demand for programmers is huge. When I say programmers I mean anyone that can code C, Java, PHP, Ruby, Python, Perl or just about any other language.
When it comes down to it, if you have learned the principals of programming, language becomes just syntax. Logic and process drives what you program. Generally speaking if you know the concept of making an app do what you want you need only learn the core of what the language you need to program in offers to make it work for you/your client/your company.
Ruby is very popular right now. It is like the new kid in school that everyone kinda wants to get close enough to to check out who they are without getting so close that they are accused of associated with him. It is a very clean language (as is Python - neither of which I have programmed in but both of which I have read code from). If you can get good at the language the better off you are. Get good at as many as you can. It can only help you in the long run.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:28 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
I wrote a reply elsewhere about programming trends. PHP has been relatively stable for a while (TIOBE Index) with a consistent number of commits to open source projects (measured by Ohloh). Ruby has seen the same thing with one big difference - it stabilised last year well below Python and PHP.
The apparent truth is that Ruby is driven largely by Rails - and Rails in a vacuum was incredible making Ruby a hugely attractive language. Now the vacuum is filling up with the likes of Django and PHP's usual numberless variants, and Rails has lost a lot of its attraction to developers considering moving to another language. Why move to Ruby if you already know Python and can jump on Django? Why move from PHP when you have CakePHP, Symfony and the other one I contribute to? There are fewer reasons these days.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:06 pm
by Ollie Saunders
History is repeating itself. People are saying the same things about Ruby as they once were about PHP. I don't believe Rails or Ruby are fads. Sun (JRuby), IBM, Apple (bundling with OS) and Microsoft (IronRuby) are taking it seriously.
Why move from PHP when you have CakePHP, Symfony and the other one I contribute to? There are fewer reasons these days.
They suck in comparison. That's why.
I'm going to be at the RubyFringe conference here in Toronto over the weekend so expect me to come back with renewed evangelism!

Are you afraid? You should be.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:42 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
Hehehe, I read this after pondering the question of how to mangle PHPSpec with the upcoming PHP 5.3 lambdas and closures...

. I wouldn't call Ruby a fad either - It's stable not decreasing in popularity. Though I did see a recent Rails blog post about the recent downturn in Rails blog posts over the last year.
You reading planetrubyonrails.com too?
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:31 am
by Ollie Saunders
I don't think Rails is a fad either, it is still evolving and improving and now at version 2.1 quite a different animal from what it was originally. In addition to this there's more than one framework for Ruby; there's quite a lot of interest around Merb.
Though I did see a recent Rails blog post about the recent downturn in Rails blog posts over the last year.
Interesting but that could be for many reasons. Maybe we've exhausted the community of the majority of early adopters so things will have to mature a bit before the next influx come in.
You reading planetrubyonrails.com too?
Haven't yet got into it and I'm not sure when I will because I've forsaken blog reading in favour of book reading.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 pm
by Christopher
I hate to sound harsh, but do we really want to add an area to these forums to attract people who will harp on and on that PHP is dying and sucks?
I think the PHP programming members would be open, and even interested, to the idea of Ruby and Python forums here. I think in the past it has been first a matter of focus maintaining a focus to DevNetwork. We can't do and be everything. We are mainly a forum for PHP programmers and other forums better serve programmers of other languages. Second is the vocal antagonism directed toward PHP from programmers of other languages. Would the mix enhance the level of discussion here or just be a source of endless flame wars?
Given the potential downsides, what do people think about having Ruby and Python forums here?
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:07 pm
by Benjamin
I think it may be a good idea to open up a new code forum for Python as a trial. If it does well then open up another one for Ruby and perhaps other languages as well. All code forums would probably need to go in a folder though, the list of forums is growing rather large:)
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:24 pm
by Ollie Saunders
I hate to sound harsh, but do we really want to add an area to these forums to attract people who will harp on and on that PHP is dying and sucks?
Perhaps I have judged PHP too harshly. I've been writing some PHP recently and whilst I have issue with writing endless getters and setters the language isn't bad, at all. I used to love PHP and there are many reasons for this. Maugrim brings to mind the fact that the language is still improving - I still haven't tried out 5.3 and the namespacing or late static binding features.
I'm aware I have been condemning PHP on these forums but in fact my desire is to enlighten others. I have almost certainly approached this incorrectly.
No programmer can say they know too much. I want more people here, some whom PHP is both their first and last language, to widen their outlook and see more of what is available. I would like others to appreciate the different programming paradigms and approaches that have been taken toward the problem of programming language design. I have started to do this, I want to do it more. I believe it has already started to make me into a better PHP programmer and a better programmer in general.
So arborint, it would be my aspiration that the addition of new forums would be a positive influence on PHP programmers, although I can appreicate there is "the flame war risk".
It could of course have a particular spirit of foundation and moderated to ensure it is maintained much as the existing forum is.
I think the PHP programming members would be open, and even interested, to the idea of Ruby and Python forums here.
I hope so, it is those that are entirely closed, almost fearful, that stand to benefit the most from this but are also the most resistant. Of course they would have to partake in the new forums in order to benefit.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:18 am
by califdon
I have less experience with operating forums than many of you in this discussion, but as just one person's opinion, I very much see arborint's point about focus. To get silly, how about a COBOL forum? Hey, talk about stable! Seriously, I would be a little concerned that the New Posts index could become completely unmanageable for many and drive the average user into a corner, just viewing the one or two forums that interest them, just to due to volume. I rather like the idea of reading the New Posts and getting exposed to interesting threads in forums I'd never bother to actually read. At some point, expansion would surely make that unwieldy. I don't know how to judge the point at which "one more is too many."
Going completely off-topic, that reminds me of the question, "Why are martinis like a woman's breasts?" Anybody remember the answer?
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:00 pm
by Weirdan
califdon wrote:Going completely off-topic, that reminds me of the question, "Why are martinis like a woman's breasts?" Anybody remember the answer?
I guess because 'two of them is just right'.
Speaking of expansion, personally I would prefer seeing more exotic languages exposing really different paradigms, like Prolog or Haskell. Ruby, Python, Perl, Java, C++ - they are just too similar to widen programmer's perspective.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:25 pm
by Ollie Saunders
Yeah. I wouldn't mind talking about Erlang either.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:50 am
by Maugrim_The_Reaper
No programmer can say they know too much. I want more people here, some whom PHP is both their first and last language, to widen their outlook and see more of what is available. I would like others to appreciate the different programming paradigms and approaches that have been taken toward the problem of programming language design. I have started to do this, I want to do it more. I believe it has already started to make me into a better PHP programmer and a better programmer in general.
I wish the same thing. My current pet peeve in PHP has grown over the past year or two from my experience with Ruby. Whether anyone likes it or not, PHP has grown into a handicapped language - not because of the language, but because of the nature of many of its users. I still cannot refer to a Ruby library or feature in a PHP scenario without inviting misunderstandings or even flames. Over the years I've used C/C++/Java/Perl/Javascript/Ruby/Smalltalk and more recently a little Erlang. Every new language opens up new horizons in PHP - other languages add to your experience in a way I will always believe is superior to PHP's continual and ever pervasive inferiority complex. What I mean by that is that PHP for some reason is slow to adopt new practices - really slow. It's part of what makes PHP look odd and amateurush from the perspective of other languages.
Re: PHPDN more than PHP?
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:24 am
by Christopher
Pádraic, I certainly hear what you and Ollie are saying. But the reality is that there have always been and will always be a small group of programmers who place a high value on broadened horizons, learning many languages, programming paradigms/approaches and the beauty and expressiveness of code in general. And you will always be quite incredulous that everyone does not see the bright and shiny future that seems so obvious to you. But the majority of us programmers are quite inferior to you guys. We are just trying to get our programs to work and become more productive in the couple of languages we've sort of figured out. Trailing edge technologies like PHP are quite enough to meet our needs and language aesthetics are simply not on our minds. On a positive note, in a few years we will probably appreciate what you were trying to tell us here...