Site making money? must be paid work
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malcolmboston
- DevNet Resident
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- Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:09 pm
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Site making money? must be paid work
Just been reading a few of the posts in volunteer because im somewhat bored in work, i have noticed that a few of the posts cleaqrly state the project when finalised is geared towards making money (selling a product) but it is still listed as volunteer work meaning you or I are working for nothing to make money for someone else
in my opinion this is "unethical" and just generally wrong, i believe that any posts that fall under this category must be paid.
There are reasons against this like people wanting to improve there portfolio, but i would hate to think we are allowing people to get "mugged" out of money when what they have coded could be making a lot of money for the other person.
and the "may have opportunity for payment later" favourite shouldnt wash
What do you guys think?
in my opinion this is "unethical" and just generally wrong, i believe that any posts that fall under this category must be paid.
There are reasons against this like people wanting to improve there portfolio, but i would hate to think we are allowing people to get "mugged" out of money when what they have coded could be making a lot of money for the other person.
and the "may have opportunity for payment later" favourite shouldnt wash
What do you guys think?
- Chris Corbyn
- Breakbeat Nuttzer
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I've already had this discussion with people before who've added me too Yahoo, MSN etc purely to ask if I'd help them build a site (n00bs).
I then find out that they are looking for an e-commerce site and they are not willing to pay a penny for it!
Yes it is unethical. Helping out is fine. Doing all the dirty work so someone else can make a buck.... it's just not right.
I then find out that they are looking for an e-commerce site and they are not willing to pay a penny for it!
Yes it is unethical. Helping out is fine. Doing all the dirty work so someone else can make a buck.... it's just not right.
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malcolmboston
- DevNet Resident
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- Location: Middlesbrough, UK
aye, i had a guy talking to me from devnetwork on MSN the other day, no matter how many times i explained how to fix the problem (i even provided a full recoding) he just wouldnt actually test it, anyway, 2 hours later he actually tested it and it worked, he was constantly just going over the same thing, i was saying "just test it".
Now its not a problem for some people, but when you've got full-time work (web development) + working from home on that project, plus my own freelance work, i genuinely do not have time to sit there for 2 hours coding something for someone else, especially for free, i know of a few people here who have alot of work themselves that will hopefully agree with me.
Its all well and good helping people out but time = money, those 2 hours could of been used adding to a freelance project (giving me some £££'s) or pleasing the boss at work with some nice new feature for the site.
like you said, the odd hand here and there is fine, but dont expect something big unless your willing to make a small donation
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my $0.02
Now its not a problem for some people, but when you've got full-time work (web development) + working from home on that project, plus my own freelance work, i genuinely do not have time to sit there for 2 hours coding something for someone else, especially for free, i know of a few people here who have alot of work themselves that will hopefully agree with me.
Its all well and good helping people out but time = money, those 2 hours could of been used adding to a freelance project (giving me some £££'s) or pleasing the boss at work with some nice new feature for the site.
like you said, the odd hand here and there is fine, but dont expect something big unless your willing to make a small donation
my $0.02
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The Monkey
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- John Cartwright
- Site Admin
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If I see them, I'll usually say something. It's one thing to ask for volunteer help on a hobbyist site or some kind of non profit-mnaking venture but to my mind it's not acceptable for an (alleged) business concern. As mentioned above, promises of pay later are a bit of a con trick transferring all the risk onto any programmer naive enough to respond.
Chancer Enterprises Inc.
"I might pay you if the site is profitable.
Programmer:
"OK then I'll write you some software which might work.
Chancer Enterprises Inc.
"I might pay you if the site is profitable.
Programmer:
"OK then I'll write you some software which might work.
the work now maybe pay later isn't volunteer anyway.
There is a risk involved as to whether the programmer will make any money.
I know because I did some work about 3 years ago for part ownership of a small company. There was some potential there,but I mainly did it because I wanted to add something to my cv. 3 years on I have yet to see any money but the company still runs, yes I do have shares but those are easy to circumnavigate on such a small scale and it isn't worth my money to go get some.
It's all about risk and reward as any investor will tell you.
But I do like the new guidelines for the volunteer section. good job for getting on top of the subject.
cheers.
There is a risk involved as to whether the programmer will make any money.
I know because I did some work about 3 years ago for part ownership of a small company. There was some potential there,but I mainly did it because I wanted to add something to my cv. 3 years on I have yet to see any money but the company still runs, yes I do have shares but those are easy to circumnavigate on such a small scale and it isn't worth my money to go get some.
It's all about risk and reward as any investor will tell you.
But I do like the new guidelines for the volunteer section. good job for getting on top of the subject.
cheers.
Well, there are also people that think you will code 8+ hours for $30 
Usually i see it like this: You get what you pay for.
I simply ignore those "will pay when we make money out of it" messages. My ISP doesn't give me free bandwith untill i make money either
It are the same as people that have a "professional admin" slogan in their profile and then ask basic questions in the forum
Usually i see it like this: You get what you pay for.
I simply ignore those "will pay when we make money out of it" messages. My ISP doesn't give me free bandwith untill i make money either
It are the same as people that have a "professional admin" slogan in their profile and then ask basic questions in the forum
...or guru...timvw wrote:It are the same as people that have a "professional admin" slogan in their profile and then ask basic questions in the forum
I'm split in how I should stand in this matter. Everyone makes sence above, but also...
Would a professional (ie. freelancer with the skill) take such job? No, not likely, they know better.Wikipedia wrote:An online volunteer is a person who contributes time and effort with an organization through an online connection, rather than in person. A wide variety of people from around the world are online volunteers and most are not technology professionals.
Would a company try to make money by unethically ask these "work now, maybe pay later"? Of course. Money is still money. They do however need to face the "You get what you pay for" as timvw mention.
The danger I see is not that the unethical 'companies'/questions exists, but that there are people thet doesn't understand the relevance and/or meaning of what they might get themselves into, ie. lack of knowledge. The description of that part of the forum should in that case change so that it doesn't reflect volunteer-work at all.
Also do note that there are those that actually do these things for free, for fun, to gain knowledge and contacts. There are also those (those making the 'offers') that actually pays in the end. I just don't want to see trolling against 'unethical companies/persons' as they just wont ever dissapear.
Namechange of the forum, (somehow) add education to those not that doesn't fully understand and let's see what happens? I bet there are many professionals that might be able to share their insight in the business and look past the issues with having more competition doing that?
Maybe making things clear from the start, 'I do not accept unpaid work' would help solve this problem.
Turning the tables a bit...... what then do you think about where a programmer accepts work for an agreed fee, a deposit is paid and then does not come up with the goods?
I for example have used a couple of different programmers over the years to do things for me for a fee, I found that in some projects 'too many' a problem arises and that's it, your left out to dry. It seemed to me that these people, some who where/are obviously very cleaver people appear to have problems in communication when a problem arises, I am of course not refering to all programmers here just some of the ones I seem to have come accross.
I actually have someone working on a project now,'or at least I think I have' who has set 2 dates for the project to be ready, since passing the second date '2 weeks ago' he has seemingly just wiped me from the board. He estimated 10 days and got on well with the project at first, but when he passed the finalisation date I contacted him and he let me know that he was behind because of a couple of personal matters, but that all would be ready on another date, one that would keep him covered, OK fine. He set me ftp access to the unfinished project and that was it. The guy doesn't answer my mail to let me know what's happening with the project, if he is going to continue or what, to be honest I find this 'ignorance' difficult to cope with.
I would actually be worried about the guy as this behavior would refelect that something serious might have happened to him, but he regularly answers posts 'practically every day' on this list so he is obviously fine. If the guy contacted me to say, sorry I just need 5 days more, listen I can't take this any further or I am not going to continue with this then at least I would know where I was, comunication... it's a shame more people don't know the significance of this word.
So with my experiances I might actually try asking for things for free myself in the future as I might have more luck, well... I doubt if I would have any less.
Turning the tables a bit...... what then do you think about where a programmer accepts work for an agreed fee, a deposit is paid and then does not come up with the goods?
I for example have used a couple of different programmers over the years to do things for me for a fee, I found that in some projects 'too many' a problem arises and that's it, your left out to dry. It seemed to me that these people, some who where/are obviously very cleaver people appear to have problems in communication when a problem arises, I am of course not refering to all programmers here just some of the ones I seem to have come accross.
I actually have someone working on a project now,'or at least I think I have' who has set 2 dates for the project to be ready, since passing the second date '2 weeks ago' he has seemingly just wiped me from the board. He estimated 10 days and got on well with the project at first, but when he passed the finalisation date I contacted him and he let me know that he was behind because of a couple of personal matters, but that all would be ready on another date, one that would keep him covered, OK fine. He set me ftp access to the unfinished project and that was it. The guy doesn't answer my mail to let me know what's happening with the project, if he is going to continue or what, to be honest I find this 'ignorance' difficult to cope with.
I would actually be worried about the guy as this behavior would refelect that something serious might have happened to him, but he regularly answers posts 'practically every day' on this list so he is obviously fine. If the guy contacted me to say, sorry I just need 5 days more, listen I can't take this any further or I am not going to continue with this then at least I would know where I was, comunication... it's a shame more people don't know the significance of this word.
So with my experiances I might actually try asking for things for free myself in the future as I might have more luck, well... I doubt if I would have any less.
Get yourself a decent contract or look for ppl that you can build a trust relationship with..
A scenario could be the following: The programmer codes for let's say $150 each time. This allows you to see progress and assures the programmer he's being paid... As the relationship evolves you can both agree to make the amount increase/decrease.
And don't forget to request documentation (will cost a bit more) but it will save you a lot of money when you decide to let someone else work on your projects...
A scenario could be the following: The programmer codes for let's say $150 each time. This allows you to see progress and assures the programmer he's being paid... As the relationship evolves you can both agree to make the amount increase/decrease.
And don't forget to request documentation (will cost a bit more) but it will save you a lot of money when you decide to let someone else work on your projects...
My standard advice to anyone looking for a php programmer is to ask if they are unit-testing. You'll get a better product not just because it's been more rigorously tested but also because this is a good indicator of a high standard of knowledge, use of modern agile methodologies, and just a generally professional attitude to programming.
Expect to pay more though. If you can find one.
Expect to pay more though. If you can find one.